No deadheading in the jumpseat... at all?

I can't believe no one has mentioned reciprocal agreements, yet. I would love to help someone else get onboard by sitting in the j/s as a DH, but here's a scenario that has played out a few times, recently:

Pilot for company A is DH'ing in back and gate agent begs pilot A to sit in j/s to get a revenue passenger on. The airline needs to move pilot A somehow. Airline A decided to sell that seat anyway (you will never see an airline "take" a "seat" off the market to note a DH). Airline A doesn't necessarily know that specific flight has a DH'ing crewmember and won't necessarily "expect" the crewmember to sit in a j/s to make room. They sell the seat to a passenger to make some cash because they legally can do that. Airline A knows it would be nice that if this scenario plays out the crewmember would try to help out. So pilot A elects to sit in the j/s and 8 minutes prior to scheduled push-back, with everybody onboard, the gate agent prepares to close the flight right as commuting pilot from Airline B runs up to the gate, hoping to get on. Gate agent is already shaking their head. There is not enough time for Pilot A to change their mind and get their DH seat in the back returned to them AND get Pilot B in the j/s. 99% of gate agents wouldn't even THINK of doing something like this as the delay would be on them and they would be bumping a paying pax, who wasn't guaranteed a seat in the first place.

Pilot B doesn't make the flight finds out that Pilot A in the j/s was a DH'ing pilot. Pilot B goes to their j/s coordinator (forget that this is "Da Union" for a minute) and mentions what happened. J/S coordinator for pilot group at Airline B tells the j/s coordinator for pilot group at Airline A that they are noticing that this scenario has played out quite frequently lately and that they don't understand why they even have a reciprical agreement anymore. Relations between pilot groups cool and reciprical agreement is terminated. Now, captains at both airlines don't feel as obligated to let pilots from the other airline in the j/s. More pilots don't get onboard and more miss work or time at home. Some will lose the only one leg commute option they have. Some will lose a day or more at home for each trip.

I realize many people see this as a company vs. union thing and there's always someone from each side that plays out the standard tune, but it really is a complex relationship that boils down to QOL is reduced when we sit in non-revenue j/s that should be left open for a commuter. This actually happened to me once...but it was all on my own company aircraft. I was the commuter. Now, some of you will say "OH TRAVIS, you are SO anti-company!!" Because I talked sense into the gate supervisor and get on the j/s. My logic was: the revenue pax should have never gotten a seat if the DH'er had kept their seat in the back and if I missed my commute, more than one pax was going to miss a flight or a connection. In fact, up to 50 for each flight I was supposed to fly in the morning. None of this was my fault, as I'm not in charge of hiring and because of how much my airline pays me and moves me around, I can't simply just pick up and move the family. So, I commuted. This is a reality in the airline world and it's not a simple matter of a whiny union-pilot wanting their throne up front. It's someone making 30k/year trying to get on that 40/40/1.5 piece of wood for an hour, which will get them to the base they did not choose and that will not be open forever.
 
O&M said:
You start letting the company...?

I'm sorry, but who's airplane is it? Who's paying you?
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Answer: The plane belongs to another company, and I wouldn't put it past my own company to take away the DH pay because we rode in the jumpseat. After all, it says in our FOM that unless it's a line check, the jumpseat if for persnal business only. What you have yet to understand is at my particular airline, if you give management an inch, they'll take about 15 miles down the road. I have accepted one JM on my day off, but when hit with ANOTHER in the same month (reducing my below the contractual minimum of days off not once, but twice) that I refused, I got called into the office to defend myself.

I'm truly flabbergasted at the priorities displayed in this thread. Help the company? Help the person who is actually paying your salary? Nah, screw them! Help a jumpseater or non-rev who is contributing nothing to the bottom line? Sure, by all means. Welcome aboard!
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In my case, the people making the money are NOT the ones paying my salary. My paycheck does not say "Delta" on it. In fact, Delta has done more to reduce my benefits in the past two years than my actual employer. Sorry if I'm not willing to bend over for them.

Don't get me wrong. Having utilized the jumpseat and non-rev privileges countless time during my aviation career, I am all for boarding as many jumpseaters and non-revs as can be carried. But you ought to be willing to expend at least as much effort to get paying passengers aboard.
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Here's a stellar idea: stop overselling flights. If a flight is book full with paying passengers, it's pure greed to sell more than you have available. It's also poor customer service. It looks very bad to sell someone something, then when they come to collect on what they've purchased be told "Sorry, we don't have enough seats for you. But here's a travel voucher and enough of a meal voucher to get you 75% of a value meal over at the airport McDonald's. Thanks for flying with us." I understand that there are a certain percentage of passengers that don't show for a flight. However, those passengers have either paid up front on a non-refundable ticket, will be paying a change fee to go on another flight or bought a full fare, refundable ticket and will likely do so down the road on another flight, making the company more money than they would have on a non-refundable ticket. Instead of being happy selling out a flight, airlines roll the dice and gamble to try to squeeze more $$$ out of the paying passengers.

You tell us to have more respect for the passengers, but the airlines themselves rarely see those same passengers as dollar signs. Don't believe me? Spend 2 hours in JFK watching how Delta handles business. It's not the same airline industry as it was several years ago. As someone that was raised on the whole customer service thing, it makes me cringe to see what goes on and how passengers are treated, not just by the rank and file counter and gate agents, but by SUPERVISORS.

I don't follow the line I do because "the union might get mad." I follow the line I do because I've been screwed in the past too many times by my employer and their contracting customers. At some point, you just stop taking punches in the face and start ducking.
 
O&M said:
This attitude that I'm not going to do anything to "help the company" until they start "treating me better" is bass-ackwards. Treat you better? They're not here to treat you better. You're there to do a job for them. That's the expectation that they had when they hired you and starting paying you. They are paying you to treat them better.
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Tell ya what. Come over, mow my lawn, and I'll pay you $40 to do it. It's twice what I paid the last guy. But, while you're doing it, I'm going to repeatedly tell you how poor of a job you're doing, how the guy down the street will do it cheaper, and then punch you in the back of the head. After all that, you take the money and say "Thank you, sir. I'll be back next week." When you come back, I'll do all the above only I'll add a few more little nuggets into the deal. After all, I'm paying you for a job. You should be thankful for that. Do you even realize how asinine that sounds? You're basically saying that people don't have to be treated as human beings simply because they're drawing a paycheck.

I think it is safe to say that you don't enter into any sort of commercial transaction, whether it be buying a hamburger or a Honda, with the thought of "How can I treat them better?" So why do you have this expectation of your employer?
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Apples to oranges. You're equating a working RELATIONSHIP to a one time or occasional retail purchase. The way you treat the person selling you the hamburgers doesn't trickle down to your bottom line the way paying employees does. Treat your employees poorly, and they'll treat your customers the same either because they don't care, they don't have the motivation or they see the customer the same way management does: a replaceable source of income. Treat your employees well, and they'll treat the customers well, increasing the chances of repeat performance. The best thing, a good attitude towards your employees doesn't cost a friggin' dime. Too bad it's so rare, though.

Of course we've had this discussion numerous times before. I guess I'm just bored.....
 
Nah, I think we're just on the cusp of a good discussion on why we have organized labor in the airline business! :)
 
Doug Taylor said:
Nah, I think we're just on the cusp of a good discussion on why we have organized labor in the airline business! :)
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JTrain and I have had this discussion. Every airline with a union, management has done something somewhere via their actions to cause a union to be on property. jetBlue's current situation is a PRIME example. Most of the pilots over there are pretty happy and don't think a union is necessary. Then the threat of being bought by American/US Airways/Big-Airline-Flavor-of-the-Week suddenly becomes real. The pilots ask managment for something in writing that would at least guarantee they have jobs post-merger. Management refuses. Guess what? The pilots are going to try to protect themselves by forcing the company into a situation where they get the legal document they need to make sure they don't get booted to the street in a merger. If managment had said "Absolutlely. Let's meet tomorrow to discuss it," we wouldn't even be discussing an ALPA vote over at jetBlue.
 
kellwolf said:
Tell ya what. Come over, mow my lawn, and I'll pay you $40 to do it. It's twice what I paid the last guy. But, while you're doing it, I'm going to repeatedly tell you how poor of a job you're doing, how the guy down the street will do it cheaper, and then punch you in the back of the head. After all that, you take the money and say "Thank you, sir. I'll be back next week." When you come back...
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I don't want to get into the middle of this, but I think the bolded section above is the root of the problem. :)
 
dasleben said:
I don't want to get into the middle of this, but I think the bolded section above is the root of the problem. :)
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While true, Q&M's point of view is management's obligation to their employees stops at cutting a paycheck. I disagree vehemently with that stance.
 
kellwolf said:
While true, Q&M's point of view is management's obligation to their employees stops at cutting a paycheck. I disagree vehemently with that stance.
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I agree, but the employee needs to exercise some amount of personal responsibility and due diligence when accepting a job in the first place. I run into a lot of people at my company who whine and complain aaaaaaaaall the way through their 18 day trips. They're awful and depressing to be around. My first question to them: "They didn't tell you during the interview that you'd be out this long?" The answer usually starts out with "Well, yeah, but STILL!" :) If you don't like it, well, it's a free country; nobody holds a gun to your head and tells you to show up. Not to say you shouldn't be able to negotiate improvements, but y'know, the people who willingly take the job and then immediately start whining about it make me scratch my head!

Even better, don't accept the job. I turned down a job at Pacific Wings during my furlough, and boy am I glad I did!
 
Doug Taylor said:
Let me pre-empt by saying "Yes, SWA has unions". :)
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Not only does SWA have unions, but they're the most heavily unionized airline in the country. The employees are smart enough to realize that even though the company treats them wonderfully, it is still important to have representation.

dasleben said:
I agree, but the employee needs to exercise some amount of personal responsibility and due diligence when accepting a job in the first place. I run into a lot of people at my company who whine and complain aaaaaaaaall the way through their 18 day trips. They're awful and depressing to be around. My first question to them: "They didn't tell you during the interview that you'd be out this long?" The answer usually starts out with "Well, yeah, but STILL!" :) If you don't like it, well, it's a free country; nobody holds a gun to your head and tells you to show up. Not to say you shouldn't be able to negotiate improvements, but y'know, the people who willingly take the job and then immediately start whining about it make me scratch my head!

Even better, don't accept the job. I turned down a job at Pacific Wings during my furlough, and boy am I glad I did!
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Easy to say, hard to do. In reality, most pilots don't have other skills or the recency of experience to just leave aviation to go do something else, and there just aren't enough jobs in aviation to be picky about which one you take. You pretty much have to accept the job offered to you. You might get calls from three airlines for interviews, and only one offers you a job. What do you do? Just say "no" and go on food stamps? Sorry, not a realistic plan. Reality is that you take the job that is offered and work to make things better.
 
dasleben said:
Even better, don't accept the job. I turned down a job at Pacific Wings during my furlough, and boy am I glad I did!
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True, but like ATN said, sometimes it's not realistically feasible to "just say no." For example, someone on unemployment benefits that interviewed at Pacific Wings, but turned down a job offer would have their unemployment benefits canceled because they turned down work that was offered. So, you now have a couple of options: work at McDonald's while you keep looking or go with no income.

I do agree that people should do their homework on potential employers. For example, Polar/Atlas might work well for some people, but not for me. I can't risk the potential of being gone as long as you could be with their schedues. 7 on 7 off is about the most I could be away from my family.
 
dasleben said:
I run into a lot of people at my company who whine and complain aaaaaaaaall the way through their 18 day trips.
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OMG......a whole 18 days deployed on the road? Wow, I can totally see where they're angst comes from having to deal with such a hardship.

At least they're not having to live in a tent.

Ever just tell them to STHU?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Not only does SWA have unions, but they're the most heavily unionized airline in the country. The employees are smart enough to realize that even though the company treats them wonderfully, it is still important to have representation.
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Not only that, but Herb recommended that the pilot's form a union...
 
Oh and to answer the OP question: I used to work for a company that it was company policy that if you were deadheading on another airline, you were not to ride in any jumpseats. But on your own airline, you could be asked to ride the jumpseat....
 
Here's another gotcha. We have had, in the past, airline B pilot deadheading (on a paid ticket) on airline A. Airline B pilot asks for the jumpseat, for whatever reason, and the "ticket" value, since it is unused, is refunded to airline B. That stuff had to be shutdown quick, as now Airline A is losing revenue for that seat, and the jumpseat is now being used for "business" purposes.
 
MDPilot said:
Here's another gotcha. We have had, in the past, airline B pilot deadheading (on a paid ticket) on airline A. Airline B pilot asks for the jumpseat, for whatever reason, and the "ticket" value, since it is unused, is refunded to airline B. That stuff had to be shutdown quick, as now Airline A is losing revenue for that seat, and the jumpseat is now being used for "business" purposes.
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Never thought of that. Interesting. We can't deadhead on airlines that aren't in the "family" brand so it's kind of a moot point for us.

Nothing like having to take a 5 hour cab ride even though there is direct air service.
 
BobDDuck said:
Never thought of that. Interesting. We can't deadhead on airlines that aren't in the "family" brand so it's kind of a moot point for us.

Nothing like having to take a 5 hour cab ride even though there is direct air service.
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A company that I know very well likes to make a DH "within the contract" with the customer by having the DHer fly with the original pilot now DHing in the back. And the gate agents often ask us to sit in the j/s to "get another on". All this happening because the company needs to move people around and since we have this huge network at our fingertips, the temptation is strong! Not my problem our staffing is messed up! Consider me helping out is me still being here in the first place!
 
I've been told we put our jumpseating agreements in danger if you occupy the jumpseat while deadheading on another airline. United mainline was stated specifically, therefore if I deadhead on United I will not sit on their jumpseat. If I was simply jumpseating on my own I would have no problem giving up my seat to get a nonrev on.
 
The worst part of it is if you go down this road and aren't careful of only agreeing to do this when there are no other people seeking the jumpseat (or believe the gate agent when they lie to your face to get you to do it) is that you're making it harder for other pilots to commute because now they have to compete against you when you had a seat in the back in any event.
 
BobDDuck said:
The gate can ask us if we are willing to take a jumpseat to get an extra passenger on board but they can't make use. In some deep, dark past place the company (via scheduling I guess) can require us to take the jumpseat as a must ride, but I haven't seen that happen in the 6 years I've been here.

I'll normally do it if it will get a non rev on. The one gotcha you've got to be careful of is that there isn't another jumpseater trying to use the jumpseat already. I've been bumped a few times by guys from my own company trying to be a team player and get extra revenue on board and taking the jumpseat when they already had a positive space seat in the back.
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This is one of the many reasons why I will not occupy the jumpseat when deadheading. The ONLY way I will occupy a jumpseat is if I am absolutely certain that it'll get a non-cockpit-eligible flight attendant or non-rev on the flight.
 
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