Night Landings

fly4food84

New Member
I'm working on my initial commercial multi-engine and I must have 10 night landings (in a multi) to satisfy the requirements. I am currently not multi-engine rated, but I have over 10 night landings in a King Air B200 signed off by a current MEI as multi-training. Would these landings be acceptable?
 

Nihon_Ni

Well-Known Member
If this time was multi-engine training, then no, it does not satisify the requirements of 61.129(b)(4)(iii). The night landings are listed under the solo/acting as PIC time of the required experience. The flight time you get for this requirement should state "performing PIC duties" in the remarks, or something to that effect, to distinguish it from training under (b)(3).

Section 61.129: Aeronautical experience.

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
 

JoelT

Well-Known Member
Its been quite awhile since I was a CFI but, I disagree with the above. Multi time is multi time no matter what kind of engines are attached to the plane. Since the King Air is a single pilot airplane you were obviously "acting as PIC" while under the supervision of an instructor.
 

Nihon_Ni

Well-Known Member
Its been quite awhile since I was a CFI but, I disagree with the above. Multi time is multi time no matter what kind of engines are attached to the plane. Since the King Air is a single pilot airplane you were obviously "acting as PIC" while under the supervision of an instructor.
There is a HUGE difference between "training" in 61.129(b)(3) and "flight time performing the duties of pilot in command" in 61.129(b)(4). The latter is a replacement for solo time since insurance companies won't insure student pilots in ME airplanes. If you have a MEI along and he's giving you training, it isn't a substitute for solo time. It's time counted towards 61.129(b)(3), not 61.129(b)(4). If he documents it as performing duties of PIC, then that's what it is.

Being a single pilot airplane has nothing to do with it. It's no different than a student pilot in a C-172 when a CFI is on board. It's not PIC unless he's solo. The difference is that insurance companies will allow students to solo SE airplanes and not ME airplanes. That's the only reason (IMHO) for this clause in the regs.

When I give guys training for initial ME CPL, they first get a round of training to learn to be the PIC, then they repeat some of these experiences as the pilot "performing duties of PIC" while I sit by and monitor them. It's different because I'm not teaching them how to fly the plane -- they are learning how to be the PIC. I ensure this difference is recorded in their logbook so there's no confusion which paragraph this flight time falls under.
 

tgrayson

New Member
It's different because I'm not teaching them how to fly the plane -- they are learning how to be the PIC.
I agree that this is the intent of the regulation. However, we don't know what occurred on the flight in the King Air when the OP got his 10 takeoff and landings. If the PIC wasn't coaching on stick and rudder skills, then it might easily qualify as the required "solo" hours.
 

SpiceWeasel

Tre Kronor
If he needs 10 landings at night as PIC in a ME airplane for commercial, and he won't qualify as PIC with an instructor on board, how on earth do you get the magical 10 landings???

The way I read it, he does NOT have a ME rating; he's going for Comm/ME at the same time.
 

Sidious

Well-Known Member
I agree that this is the intent of the regulation. However, we don't know what occurred on the flight in the King Air when the OP got his 10 takeoff and landings. If the PIC wasn't coaching on stick and rudder skills, then it might easily qualify as the required "solo" hours.

Let's say that was the case. He would still have needed to get the endorsement from that "instructor" to log it as such no?
 

fly4food84

New Member
I already have my required 10 hours of "Acting as PIC".

The night landings say nothing about being the PIC or acting as PIC, unless I'm reading it wrong.
 

tgrayson

New Member
If he needs 10 landings at night as PIC in a ME airplane for commercial, and he won't qualify as PIC with an instructor on board, how on earth do you get the magical 10 landings??? way I read it, he does NOT have a ME rating; he's going for Comm/ME at the same time.
These aren't PIC landings, unless he has a Private ME. They are 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command, which is a bogus thing that the FAA came up with to allow a non-rated pilot to get his "solo" time in for this certificate. He can count it as PIC on his 8710, but can't log it as such.
 

tgrayson

New Member
Let's say that was the case. He would still have needed to get the endorsement from that "instructor" to log it as such no?
I guess that's debatable. The regulations don't specifically call for any training during this time, even though the FAA stated in the old FAQs that it should be CRM-type training. As for logging, it's the same as if you'd flown it solo, except for the lack of any hours in the PIC column.

Right of the bat, I don't see why this entry needs an endorsement, except for the requirement for the CFI to sign the logbook of anyone he gave training to.
 

tgrayson

New Member
The night landings say nothing about being the PIC or acting as PIC, unless I'm reading it wrong.

I think you are. Notice that this requirement is (ii) underneath the (4). Let me reformat it for you:

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
 
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