NFOs to instruct in T-45s in USN

mjg407 said:
I dunno. Like Mike said, if the pilot was winged and learning advanced tactics, I think it would be different. Bottom line is the guy needs to be a pilot first and understand how to handle the aircraft in advanced tactical maneuvering. It will be interesting how this plays if there is a mishap.

I wonder if this is only going to be in the sim? I just don't see it being a good idea in the plane.
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I tend to agree...

They have changed the program so much, I don't think I could make an informed opinion on whether this is a good idea. I do think that for certain hops, at certain phases of the syllabus, it might well be a valid concept. I have a fellow two anchor buddy who is getting ready to take command of one of the NFO VT squadrons. I may give him a poke to see whazzup with this.
 
MikeD said:
In a Training Wing, the guy up front isn't yet a winged aviator, just a solo-cleared student. And the guy in back of the T-45 is an NFO, not a designated pilot/aviator. Kind of a touch situation of who's legally in charge of the flight: a student pilot with no wings yet, or an officer-aircrewman who isn't a pilot. If things go to crap with the student....run into bad WX, have trouble landing, etc....what's the NFO going to do? In any other naval tactical aircraft, the NFO doesn't even have a stick or throttles in the back. Yes, I know, in NFO primary, NFOs do solo the T-34/T-6 as part of their training, but beyond that they never really get stick time anymore. They can follow an instrument approach, but they don't actually fly it. Now I'm not sure if in the former S-3 community if NFOs actually did flying, since that community in the late 80s/early 90s replaced the copilot aviator, with an NFO/COTAC (co-pilot, Tactical Coordinator). The big difference again, is that the USN does treat their NFOs as co-pilots. In tactical jets, the NFO does nearly everything but actually fly the plane.
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One, the SNFO's do not solo in the T-6. They get 6 rides in the front but never solo. Two, I don't agree with this at all. The idea behind having an IP in the back or front of the 45 is experience flying the aircraft. Most of your IP's in 45's are going to have 1000+ hours either in tactical or E2/C2 aircraft and all have been to the boat. I know some P-3 types get to IP but again, they do have flying experience as pilots. I've even heard some NFO types are going to give NATOPS qual's in the T-6. Not sure if that one is still going through. When I flew T-2C Buckeye's, I don't know how an NFO could have been beneficial in most in any stages of advanced. Of couse the boat would be the big thing but I doubt they are used for that anyway. My guess is someboyd up high, like NFO, came up with this idea to keep some of their validity with maybe an excess number of NFO's???
 
bunk22 said:
One, the SNFO's do not solo in the T-6. They get 6 rides in the front but never solo. Two, I don't agree with this at all. The idea behind having an IP in the back or front of the 45 is experience flying the aircraft. Most of your IP's in 45's are going to have 1000+ hours either in tactical or E2/C2 aircraft and all have been to the boat. I know some P-3 types get to IP but again, they do have flying experience as pilots. I've even heard some NFO types are going to give NATOPS qual's in the T-6. Not sure if that one is still going through. When I flew T-2C Buckeye's, I don't know how an NFO could have been beneficial in most in any stages of advanced. Of couse the boat would be the big thing but I doubt they are used for that anyway. My guess is someboyd up high, like NFO, came up with this idea to keep some of their validity with maybe an excess number of NFO's???
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Is there a difference in having an NFO be a backseat IP in the T-45 vs having an NFO IP in the F-18F at a FRS?:confused:
 
Do you guys really use the term IP to refer to an instructor NFO? In the USAF we say "IWSO".

As far as Navs as the instructor of record in training aircraft....

At IFF, students do not have a "Form 8" checkride in the AT-38, so they have to be cleared for solo in order to fly without an IP. Certain rides in the program are cleared for solo, with the IP supervision coming from the IP in the lead jet. For students who are going to the F-15E, it is at this point that they can fly with an IWSO. The IWSO writes the gradesheet, the student "signs" for the aircraft, and the IP/flight lead is responsible for it all.

When student pilots get to the F-15E FTU, they fly their first couple sorties with an IP in the back seat, then take their Form 8 instrument checkride very early in the program (4th or 5th sortie in the jet). Once they have a Form 8, they are officially qualified to sign for and fly the jet with an IWSO.
 
Hacker15e said:
Do you guys really use the term IP to refer to an instructor NFO? In the USAF we say "IWSO".
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F-18F NFOs are reffered to as WSOs also. P-3, E-2 and E-6B NFOs are reffered to as plain old NFOs. EA-6B NFOs are reffered to as ECMOs.

At the F-18 FRS an NFO instructor is reffered to as an IWSO. All other airframe NFO instructors are not reffered to as IWSOs. Also, I am pretty sure that only IWSOs will be allowed to instruct at the VTs, at least I hope so. Cant immagine a P-3 NFO sitting in the back of a T-45 during a T-45 ACM hop. Actually I can, but it would be too funny.
 
bunk22 said:
My guess is someboyd up high, like NFO, came up with this idea to keep some of their validity with maybe an excess number of NFO's???
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:yeahthat:
Also, since when is there an IP shortage? (instructor pilot that is)
 
H46Bubba said:
Is there a difference in having an NFO be a backseat IP in the T-45 vs having an NFO IP in the F-18F at a FRS?:confused:
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Other than having a winged aviator in the front seat? Granted a winged FRS student is still very green. Is the NFO only being used as an instructor during the BFM stage in T-45's? Is he there for FAM's, BI's, FORM's, FCLP's as well?? The idea in advanced is really to teach a SNA or SMA as they are called now, the basics of flying in different regimes on that aircraft. A Hornet WSO at the FRS is probably there to teach the winged aviator how to use the aircraft as a weapons system, helping him in certain regimes of flying but not flying, if that makes sense. In my experience, I just couldn't see an NFO helping me in any phase of my flight training.
 
mjg407 said:
How would an NFO be able to instruct a pilot at the RAG? Who is the NATOPS qualified pilot?
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I'm not a tactical guy but I think in BFM they offer their input, help the stud along. My old boss was a former F-14 RIO and then one of the first 7 RIO to F-14 pilots. Now a Delta 767 FO. Anyway, he always claimed he knew nothing about flying as an NFO/RIO. It opened his eyes when he switched over to pilot. We talked about this not too long ago, I was curious what he thought being he had been both. He was also a T-45 IP in Kingsville.
 
bunk22 said:
Other than having a winged aviator in the front seat? Granted a winged FRS student is still very green. Is the NFO only being used as an instructor during the BFM stage in T-45's? Is he there for FAM's, BI's, FORM's, FCLP's as well?? The idea in advanced is really to teach a SNA or SMA as they are called now, the basics of flying in different regimes on that aircraft. A Hornet WSO at the FRS is probably there to teach the winged aviator how to use the aircraft as a weapons system, helping him in certain regimes of flying but not flying, if that makes sense. In my experience, I just couldn't see an NFO helping me in any phase of my flight training.
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The reason I asked was because I remember a buddy of mine who is now a Rhino driver used to fly the F-14. He said during the carrier ops phase he had an NFO instructor in the backseat and I think he said when we went to Fallon for ACM, the Saints instructor in the backset was an NFO too.
 
H46Bubba said:
The reason I asked was because I remember a buddy of mine who is now a Rhino driver used to fly the F-14. He said during the carrier ops phase he had an NFO instructor in the backseat and I think he said when we went to Fallon for ACM, the Saints instructor in the backset was an NFO too.
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At the FRS, an NFO will ride in the back. In the training command, nobody rides in the backseat of a stud going to the boat, wouldn't be wise :)
 
mjg407 said:
:yeahthat:
Also, since when is there an IP shortage? (instructor pilot that is)
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So after my one year Korea tour, I'm to go fly T-6's in P-cola but there is a push to get guys to Meridian. I'm a prior boat guy (COD guy) so it's natural to want boat players to go IP in 45's....though I flew the T-2C. I said no way to Meridian but would go to Kingsville but they are full of E2/C2 types. I was told Kingsville & Meridian are overall hurting for IP's however.
 
bunk22 said:
At the FRS, an NFO will ride in the back. In the training command, nobody rides in the backseat of a stud going to the boat, wouldn't be wise :)
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Yeah I'd rather watch from behind the safety line or better yet from inside PRIFLY!:D
 
bunk22 said:
At the FRS, an NFO will ride in the back. In the training command, nobody rides in the backseat of a stud going to the boat, wouldn't be wise :)
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In the Prowler community, we go to the boat with a stud pilot at the controls, an instructor NFO in the front right seat, and a student NFO in the back. Day and night. Fun, fun!
 
papyco said:
F-18F NFOs are reffered to as WSOs also. P-3, E-2 and E-6B NFOs are reffered to as plain old NFOs. EA-6B NFOs are reffered to as ECMOs.
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Not so P-3s, EP-3s, E-6Bs NFO all have specific crew names. TACCO, NAV, SEVAL, (I used to know but forget the E6B one)... NFO is the generic name for the designator. Not sure about the E-2s but they would be the only community that didn't have one.
 
bunk22 said:
My guess is someboyd up high, like NFO, came up with this idea to keep some of their validity with maybe an excess number of NFO's???
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bunk22 said:
In my experience, I just couldn't see an NFO helping me in any phase of my flight training.
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bunk22 said:
I'm not a tactical guy but I think in BFM they offer their input, help the stud along. My old boss was a former F-14 RIO and then one of the first 7 RIO to F-14 pilots. Now a Delta 767 FO. Anyway, he always claimed he knew nothing about flying as an NFO/RIO. It opened his eyes when he switched over to pilot. We talked about this not too long ago, I was curious what he thought being he had been both. He was also a T-45 IP in Kingsville.
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Ok Bunk we get it. You don't like NFOs. On the other hand, you come from the COD community, so you don't have a lot of experience working with them, unless you did an E2 tour, and those NFO are a different breed altogether.

From my experience as a landbased NFO, the workload and skills required to do that job normally exceeded that required to do my current 121 job. Simple statement of fact.

Talking about the Tacair pipeline, I don't really know if this is a good idea or not. I don't have that experience and neither do you apparently. I generally think that it would be better to have a pilot doing that job, but for some hops, a well seasoned NFO could probably do a first rate job. I think a NFO with some time, and all his training probably knows something about "flying". You ex bosses hearsay comment, may not be in context, but at face value is assinine.

The sky is not falling. Please do me a professional courtesy and tone down the "NFOs are ballast" rhetoric.
 
granlistillo said:
Ok Bunk we get it. You don't like NFOs. On the other hand, you come from the COD community, so you don't have a lot of experience working with them, unless you did an E2 tour, and those NFO are a different breed altogether.

From my experience as a landbased NFO, the workload and skills required to do that job normally exceeded that required to do my current 121 job. Simple statement of fact.

Talking about the Tacair pipeline, I don't really know if this is a good idea or not. I don't have that experience and neither do you apparently. I generally think that it would be better to have a pilot doing that job, but for some hops, a well seasoned NFO could probably do a first rate job. I think a NFO with some time, and all his training probably knows something about "flying". You ex bosses hearsay comment, may not be in context, but at face value is assinine.

The sky is not falling. Please do me a professional courtesy and tone down the "NFOs are ballast" rhetoric.
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No, no, not that I don't like NFO's. I haven't said a bad word about them, cut and paste if so. I will say that in advanced for pilots, I don't see any use for them unless maybe it's in the BFM stage and such. The idea behind flight training is to train a pilot to fly, to critique him, offer advice, etc, etc. It takes a pilot with experience to do that. If that offends you, I don't know what to tell you.

However, I did a tour with VAW-120 and I don't like the general community of E-2 NFO's. One on one, most are okay dudes but as a whole, it's a community that likes pain.
 
Nihon_Ni said:
In the Prowler community, we go to the boat with a stud pilot at the controls, an instructor NFO in the front right seat, and a student NFO in the back. Day and night. Fun, fun!
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Brave people! I was a primary night CQ IP at VAW-120 as I was part of the VRC-30 COD days when we flew day and night at the boat. Nothing I've done in my career is as nerve racking as going to the boat at night with an FRS student for the first time. I have some control in the right seat though. You Prowler and Hornet types don't...yikes :insane:

H46Bubba said:
Yeah I'd rather watch from behind the safety line or better yet from inside PRIFLY!:D
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I'd rather not be on the flight deck as well....maybe watching from the ready room!
 
bunk22 said:
No, no, not that I don't like NFO's. I haven't said a bad word about them, cut and paste if so. I will say that in advanced for pilots, I don't see any use for them unless maybe it's in the BFM stage and such. The idea behind flight training is to train a pilot to fly, to critique him, offer advice, etc, etc. It takes a pilot with experience to do that. If that offends you, I don't know what to tell you.
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Ok, I was reading between the lines, based on your comments I posted above, especially the first one. I do think I can be forgiven for the sensitivity, as they could be interpreted in that way. They have a different and important job to do, and mutual respect and teamwork is required to maximize the effectiveness of that weapon system. I have seen some one anchor - two anchor rivalry BS that if taken to the plane will kill a crew's effectiveness.

I can't say I disagree with your training views, except that I think they could in certain scenarios do an adequate job. Your views on training certainly do not offend me.

BTW,an E2 NFO is an entirely, and I mean entirely different bird than a landbased or tacair flavor.
 
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