NFOs to instruct in T-45s in USN

MikeD

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Naval Flight Officers will soon instruct some Navy and Marine student fighter pilots. For the first time, as part of a "probationary program", the chief of naval air training expects to add several NFOs [of the RIO/WSO background] to the four jet training wings flying T-45 Goshawk's at NAS Kingsville, Tx and Meridian, MS.

"We're going to test it out for a year and see how it goes," said RAdm. Mark Guadagnini, the chief of naval air training. NFOs will only fly with students in the program's advanced phase, after the students have passed a "safe for solo" checkride, training officials said. For years, NFO instructors have provided key tactical training to young aviators at the fleet replacement squadron level [where the Naval aviators have already been winged]. Now, NFOs will teach undergraduate students tactical skills such as weapons training and air combat maneuvering, a duty previously reserved for IP Naval Aviators, not NFOs.

A key motivation for adding NFO instructors at the training wing level for pilots, was to beef up staffing and reduce bottlenecks in the student flight pipeline. A few years ago, the supply of IPs fell to 75% of the training wing's requirements, making it difficult to produce as many pilots as the USN/USMC needed, training officials said.

IP manning in the training wings is back to nearly 100%, and introducing NFOs as flying instructors may help keep it that way by avoiding a "single source solution" that permits only jet pilots to serve as IPs.

Pretty unprecedented. I could NEVER see the USAF allowing their rated Navigator personnel instructing as IPs at UPT bases. It would just never happen. Difference is, in the USN, NFO are seen as more like co-pilots; whereas in the USAF, Navigators (WSO/EWO, etc) are wrongly seen as second-class citizens. Promotion rates and opportunities for command for USN/USMC NFOs is FAR greater than it is for USAF Navs.
 
Pretty unprecedented. I could NEVER see the USAF allowing their rated Navigator personnel instructing as IPs at UPT bases. It would just never happen. Difference is, in the USN, NFO are seen as more like co-pilots; whereas in the USAF, Navigators (WSO/EWO, etc) are wrongly seen as second-class citizens. Promotion rates and opportunities for command for USN/USMC NFOs is FAR greater than it is for USAF Navs.
WOW!!!
 
There has been a lot of grumbling about this from the instructors in my squadron. From a student's perspective, I don't really understand how it would help, but if that's what they think they need to do, then I won't argue with those who know more than I. I've yet to see any arrive here, but it will be interesting to watch (and I will most likely be in one of the first groups of students to experience this). Also, there are only 2 jet training wings for SNA's FWIW
 
It's true. The USAF has never appreciated their Navigator corps as much as the USN has appreciated their NFO corps. And that is reflected in opportunity for command, etc.
Sorry Mike, it was more of a "wow, they are seriously bucking the system" than the USAF is behind the times.

I was a black shoe, so probably am very uneducated on the subject, and mean absolutely no disrespect, but what can an NFO teach to the pilots??? Please educate me, as apparently I am clueless as to the roles. I thought an NFO did back seat stuff, and had very little in common with the front seat guy?!

added: much respect for both pipelines, just trying to figure out the logic...
 
Sorry Mike, it was more of a "wow, they are seriously bucking the system" than the USAF is behind the times.

I was a black shoe, so probably am very uneducated on the subject, and mean absolutely no disrespect, but what can an NFO teach to the pilots??? Please educate me, as apparently I am clueless as to the roles. I thought an NFO did back seat stuff, and had very little in common with the front seat guy?!

added: much respect for both pipelines, just trying to figure out the logic...

Kind of what I wonder. I mean, in a RAG (follow-on training), the guy in the front seat is already a winged Naval Aviator, so an Instructor NFO (for instance, in an F-14 RAG) is teaching the already-pilot tactics, etc.

In a Training Wing, the guy up front isn't yet a winged aviator, just a solo-cleared student. And the guy in back of the T-45 is an NFO, not a designated pilot/aviator. Kind of a touch situation of who's legally in charge of the flight: a student pilot with no wings yet, or an officer-aircrewman who isn't a pilot. If things go to crap with the student....run into bad WX, have trouble landing, etc....what's the NFO going to do? In any other naval tactical aircraft, the NFO doesn't even have a stick or throttles in the back. Yes, I know, in NFO primary, NFOs do solo the T-34/T-6 as part of their training, but beyond that they never really get stick time anymore. They can follow an instrument approach, but they don't actually fly it. Now I'm not sure if in the former S-3 community if NFOs actually did flying, since that community in the late 80s/early 90s replaced the copilot aviator, with an NFO/COTAC (co-pilot, Tactical Coordinator). The big difference again, is that the USN does treat their NFOs as co-pilots. In tactical jets, the NFO does nearly everything but actually fly the plane.

So this is an interesting, though unprecedented, move. I'm curious for mjg407s or Velo's input....
 
Its obviously tactical instruction, not flight instruction. If its after "safe for solo" its probably BETTER for studs to be flying with RIOs/BNs since that's who they'll be with in the fleet squadrons.
 
I didn't know that they had it the other way around. Would this be like the AF putting a pilot in the FE seat for training and then deciding that an actual enlisted FE should be there instead?
 
I didn't know that they had it the other way around. Would this be like the AF putting a pilot in the FE seat for training and then deciding that an actual enlisted FE should be there instead?

Not really. More so like putting AF Navigators as IPs at UPT to sit in the right seat of a T-37 to instruct post-solo students.
 
Its obviously tactical instruction, not flight instruction. If its after "safe for solo" its probably BETTER for studs to be flying with RIOs/BNs since that's who they'll be with in the fleet squadrons.
I dunno. Like Mike said, if the pilot was winged and learning advanced tactics, I think it would be different. Bottom line is the guy needs to be a pilot first and understand how to handle the aircraft in advanced tactical maneuvering. It will be interesting how this plays if there is a mishap.

I wonder if this is only going to be in the sim? I just don't see it being a good idea in the plane.
 
NFOs will be instructing in the Advanced Phase of the program. There are two phases to the T-45 program. The first phase consists of Fam (Contact), Formation - 2/4 ship day/night and your instrument rating. After this basic phase the students move on to the advanced phase of BFM, Tac Form, Bombing, LATT and CQ. So even though the article seems to imply that NFOs will be in the back seat after the first solo. I guarantee you that will not be the case. Also, it is my understanding that USAF UPT wings its pilots after the Navy's version of Phase One and then proceeds to sends its students to IFF, which is the Navy's version of Phase Two (the Advanced Phase). So, imagine a WSO/NAV flying with a student in IFF, not in UPT.
 
Also, it is my understanding that USAF UPT wings its pilots after the Navy's version of Phase One and then proceeds to sends its students to IFF, which is the Navy's version of Phase Two (the Advanced Phase). So, imagine a WSO/NAV flying with a student in IFF, not in UPT. [/FONT][/SIZE]

The AF would never have a WSO/NAV as an IP in an IFF unit. Not saying that's right or that I agree with it, just stating factually that the AFs mentality wouldn't allow for that. Curious though, who is the actual PIC for the flights? The still not-yet-winged SNA, or the NFO/IP who isn't an aviator and therefore (I would assume) couldn't legally sign for the jet?
 
The AF would never have a WSO/NAV as an IP in an IFF unit. Not saying that's right or that I agree with it, just stating factually that the AFs mentality wouldn't allow for that. Curious though, who is the actual PIC for the flights? The still not-yet-winged SNA, or the NFO/IP who isn't an aviator and therefore (I would assume) couldn't legally sign for the jet?


Not saying that the USAF would put a WSO in the back of an IFF student's jet. Just saying that the Navy is not putting WSOs in the back of Navy "UPT" (Phase One) students.

I am not a T-45 IP and the only thing I know is what I have read on various forums and from talking to guys who are IPs in the VTs. The student would still sign for the Jet. A NFO can never be PIC/Aircraft Commander. In the Super Hornet FRS, the FRS student pilot signs for the Jet even though he might be flying with an O-6 NFO. Even when that FRS student has not yet gotten a Natops qual in the F-18.
 
Actually...they do. And have since about 2004.

That's good. I remember they had the Track D (or whatever it was called) portion of the program for WSOs in IFF, but had remembered it was always pilots that taught it. If WSOs are teaching it for student WSOs, thats cool. Or are the I-WSOs teaching the A/B/C tracks for the pilots in IFF? That'd be good too. At least the AF would be advancing their Navigator corps on par with what the USN has for years.
 
Not saying that the USAF would put a WSO in the back of an IFF student's jet. Just saying that the Navy is not putting WSOs in the back of Navy "UPT" (Phase One) students.

I am not a T-45 IP and the only thing I know is what I have read on various forums and from talking to guys who are IPs in the VTs. The student would still sign for the Jet. A NFO can never be PIC/Aircraft Commander. In the Super Hornet FRS, the FRS student pilot signs for the Jet even though he might be flying with an O-6 NFO. Even when that FRS student has not yet gotten a Natops qual in the F-18.

Thats cool. Am not necessarily for or against the idea. Was just wondering how some of the details of it would work.
 
Curious though, who is the actual PIC for the flights? The still not-yet-winged SNA, or the NFO/IP who isn't an aviator and therefore (I would assume) couldn't legally sign for the jet?

Hi. I'm Rob, and I'm and NFO.

[Hi Rob.]

Okay, so my secret is out. I've been going to 12-step programs for a while now but they don't seem to be working. :D

An NFO can't sign for the plane. He's not the aircraft commander and doesn't even log pilot time. Only the SNA can do those things. I have held my share of instructor ratings and taught rated aviators the whole bag of tactical tricks, NATOPS and instrument checks, PMEs, IUTs etc; but this is the first I've heard of the NFOI for SNAs. Interesting idea....
 
MikeD, where did you find this announcement? I've looked all over Google, but ths thread is the only thing that comes up.
 
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