Next Up in the RLA Conga Line

SlumTodd_Millionaire said:
Bad strategy. I’ve played that game before, and SWAPA used it against us. We settled for rates far below what we were targeting in order to get the CBA done so we could focus on SLI and a JCBA, but then SWAPA came to the SLI table and claimed our new rates were proof that we were an “inferior” carrier based on our lower pay rates that we just agreed to. Don’t make that mistake.
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That’s a fair argument but if NK voted yes the rates would be above JB and it’s also two ALPA carriers so it’s not exactly the same situation. That said, it’s a bum deal that’s packaged to look like a gift so it should be shot dow anyways.
 
Box hauler said:
I personally think you’ll take any position on any topic as long as it allows you to be argumentative. When NK was working on the last contract you stuck your “ legacy “ nose in the air and said there were “tiers” of airlines and people who didn’t work at legacies were foolish to ever expect legacy rates. Maybe not word for word but that was the jist of your argument. Now it makes you insane if people aren’t happy with what they have? Thank goodness your negotiating committee had a stronger spine than you do. I’ve never expected delta rates at NK but I’m thankful to them for raising the tide. By the way, keep trying to get hired at Delta, your sexual tension with them is sickening.
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I mean, he is right that the NMB views airlines in “tiers,” and they’ll never let a Spirit or Frontier fight to the end for Delta rates.

But here’s the part he won’t like: the NMB doesn’t view Alaska as being a legacy tier carrier, either. So you expecting Alaska rates is not crazy.
 
SlumTodd_Millionaire said:
I mean, he is right that the NMB views airlines in “tiers,” and they’ll never let a Spirit or Frontier fight to the end for Delta rates.

But here’s the part he won’t like: the NMB doesn’t view Alaska as being a legacy tier carrier, either. So you expecting Alaska rates is not crazy.
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Competition is currently deciding pay rates, not the NMB. That said you’re totally correct
 
SlumTodd_Millionaire said:
Bad strategy. I’ve played that game before, and SWAPA used it against us. We settled for rates far below what we were targeting in order to get the CBA done so we could focus on SLI and a JCBA, but then SWAPA came to the SLI table and claimed our new rates were proof that we were an “inferior” carrier based on our lower pay rates that we just agreed to. Don’t make that mistake.
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I'd agree with that for a SWAPA and ALPA merger. But B6 and NK are ALPA carriers, their SLI is going to go fairly easily once in arbitration. Spirit and jetBlue will be a fairly easy SLI.
 
SlumTodd_Millionaire said:
I mean, he is right that the NMB views airlines in “tiers,” and they’ll never let a Spirit or Frontier fight to the end for Delta rates.

But here’s the part he won’t like: the NMB doesn’t view Alaska as being a legacy tier carrier, either. So you expecting Alaska rates is not crazy.
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And I never said that. Unlike some pilots with egos, I know my place in the pecking order. If we have to name passenger carrier tiers, lets call it Tiers 1 - 4.

Tier 1 - AA, DL, UA. ONLY. Period, full stop.

Tier 2 - AS, HAL, SWA, B6, NK, F9, Allegiant

Tier 3 - Smallest national carriers: Breeze, Avelo, Sun Country,

Tier 4 - Regionals




APC's pilot pay website puts 5 carriers under the legacy banner, AA/DL/UA/AS/HAL. Presumably because they've all been around since the ~1930s.
 
The fact we got average to the top 4 carriers for 2023 and 2024 is awesome. This is a first, as best as I can recall. This is basically a company signing a contract with no idea what the future payraise could snap up to, but knowing they'll have to pay somewhat competitively in order to attract and retain pilots.



That said, I think something will give way in the next 10 yrs. My guess is MPL. And then you'll see pilot salaries get "corrected" to lower values.

Enjoy the next 5-7 yrs. It won't last.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
I'd agree with that for a SWAPA and ALPA merger. But B6 and NK are ALPA carriers, their SLI is going to go fairly easily once in arbitration. Spirit and jetBlue will be a fairly easy SLI.
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ALPA or non-ALPA isn’t really relevant. We agreed on essentially the same process as ALPA Merger Policy in our SLI process agreement. Now, Southwest and SWAPA later reneged on that like the slime that they are, but that was much later.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
The fact we got average to the top 4 carriers for 2023 and 2024 is awesome. This is a first, as best as I can recall. This is basically a company signing a contract with no idea what the future payraise could snap up to, but knowing they'll have to pay somewhat competitively in order to attract and retain pilots.



That said, I think something will give way in the next 10 yrs. My guess is MPL. And then you'll see pilot salaries get "corrected" to lower values.

Enjoy the next 5-7 yrs. It won't last.
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What’s MPL? Also why do you think we’re all gonna make less in the future? Genuinely interested
 
Yakob said:
The current job market is unusually pilot-friendly. Hard to see that lasting forever as nice as that would be.
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That’s completely reasonable but that’s why rates may not continue to raise. IMO rates not continuing to go up and rates lowering are two very different things. Rates lowering means pilot groups voting in new contracts with lower rates. If another 9–11 etc happens sure it’s possible
 
///AMG said:
I'm not sure how, contractually, one year could have been so crazy?
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It was mostly United. They'd been in negotiations for a while, and in late summer of 2000 the CEO walked in (per the first hand story I heard) without telling any of the labor relations team, and offered to sign the current deal on the table as is, if United ALPA would support his attempt to close out the merger with USAir. The rates were (at the time) astronomical. It forced Delta to sign a deal (about 6 months later) that was also pretty sizable.

Of course 9-11 pretty much killed any gains made.
 
BobDDuck said:
It was mostly United. They'd been in negotiations for a while, and in late summer of 2000 the CEO walked in (per the first hand story I heard) without telling any of the labor relations team, and offered to sign the current deal on the table as is, if United ALPA would support his attempt to close out the merger with USAir. The rates were (at the time) astronomical. It forced Delta to sign a deal (about 6 months later) that was also pretty sizable.

Of course 9-11 pretty much killed any gains made.
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Do you or anyone have those UAL rates? Just curious what they looked like.
 
This would have been effective May 2004. Here is a link to the whole thing https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/100517/000010051701500026/alpa.htm

The formatting is a little goofy but start with the 747-400 and work your way down, no pay banding back then.


CAPTAINS

B74- DC-10- 767/ A319/ B300/


400 B747 B777 F DC10 757 A320 B727 500 B737

1yr 348.62 321.22 295.23 287.25 261.22 241.93 231.03 217.70 205.61 203.62

2yr 348.62 321.22 296.91 289.63 263.38 243.79 232.94 219.69 207.38 205.38

3yr 348.62 321.22 298.45 291.78 265.34 245.72 234.84 221.57 209.21 207.22

4yr 348.62 321.22 300.09 294.09 267.44 247.67 236.78 223.47 211.18 209.21

5yr 348.62 321.22 301.79 296.48 269.61 249.63 238.75 225.47 213.17 211.19

6yr 348.62 321.22 303.33 298.63 271.57 251.48 240.59 227.29 215.06 213.09

7yr 349.61 322.07 305.02 300.68 273.43 253.15 242.35 229.16 216.96 215.00

8yr 350.55 322.99 307.04 303.18 275.72 255.28 244.39 231.08 218.88 216.92

9yr 351.40 323.79 308.73 305.26 277.60 256.96 246.10 232.83 220.53 218.57

10yr 352.46 324.77 311.24 308.41 280.47 259.62 248.73 235.45 223.27 221.31

11yr 353.31 325.55 313.62 311.47 283.25 262.41 251.39 238.07 255.84 223.89

12yr 355.82 326.45 216.45 314.56 286.06 264.87 253.99 240.67 228.54 226.58


 
Maxed out 747-400 pay then would be equal to 614/hr today. Wow. I was just thinking about that UA contract and knew it didn't last long.
 
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