Newsweek: who will pilot all those planes?

That's when you start getting into the "good old boy" upgrade program. Unfortunately, at some airlines, that's where the instructor corps comes from because the IP program is run by management, not contract.
 
surreal1221 said:
Ah hah!

See. . .

You mentioned an area that you think needs (potentially) improving. Personally, CRM is a continuous development of strategies that will provide a safe cockpit and overall flight environment.

MFT, I'm glad you actually mentioned SOMETHING instead of just saying Low time pilots are bad, or high time FOs upgrading are bad, or airplanes have more technology and are bad, etc. like some people.

I don't mind people saying they think actual segments of our industry need improvement, but when it's just the usual anti-low timer, anti-FO upgrading banter it's rather pointless.
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Well, the Tenerife, Air Florida, and couple of other incidents don't indicate low timers in the right seat, but it did reveal a character flaw or two with the left seater. Could that have been indicated/revealed earlier by an evaluation not directed related to flying prowess? Just wondering.
 
Velocipede said:
Tenerife was more of a KLM cultural problem than an individual one. So were both KAL accidents: Tunisa and Guam.
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. . .I won't argue the totality of the Tenerife being a combination of things, but I'm also believing an individual attitude played into it as well. My thought was - could an individual personality quirk be seen by a CA with F/Os that be seen beforehand along with the Air Florida crash in Washington, DC, the 1994 B-52 crash, or the FL410 CRJ crash? Maybe these CAs would have never become CAs had it been seen/observed while they were F/Os?

My point to all this is we're putting more and more pilots into airplanes to fly. Many are asking for more pay. Does pay relate to quality of the CAs and their "whole person" skills, or does it relate simply to experience and flying prowess? If the answer is the latter, systemically, the industry needs to change.

My understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, was that "back in the day," pilots were groomed leadership wise from the military where most pilots were selected. Where's the leadership grooming coming from now?

Shouldn't it come from within? If so, who is training the trainers?
 
The military has a defined system for grooming and selection of commanders. There is no civilian equivalent. So, the seniority system must suffice.
 
RightSeatGirl said:
I too have always wondered about the logic of automatic promotion based only on seniority. Off the top of my head I can't think of any other industry that works that way. Merit, ability, skill, attitude, performance record, ability to handle supervisory authority all should be considered before putting a pilot in the left seat. Now I got not issue with seniority making one eligible for upgrade in a basic sense...but I think unions have put too much of a strangle hold an a company's ability to be more stringent on who upgrades and who does not. There are a lot of c/a's out there that have no business in the left seat. They got there due only to seniority. Why is it such taboo for this industry to be more selective when it comes to upgrade?
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Have you ever upgraded in a 121 position? Your assumptions that seniority is why someone becomes a Captain are........ COMPLETELY FALSE! Sure, seniority allows a person to demonstrate one's ability during upgrade training to qualify to sit in the left seat. Then, there's the pesky little detail of a checkride to actually become a Captain. Gotta pass the ride.....and seniority has absolutely nothing to do with passing.

Besides, and I know it's already been mentioned....but without the seniority system to schedule upgrades, politics becomes a large determinant factor.....and that just doesn't work in high-risk careers, such as ours.
 
Cruise said:
Besides, and I know it's already been mentioned....but without the seniority system to schedule upgrades, politics becomes a large determinant factor.....and that just doesn't work in high-risk careers, such as ours.
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I wouldn't call 121 flying high-risk. If you're talking about the pilot career on the whole then yes, the death rate is relatively high compared to many other jobs.

Before the flames come: yes, I know that safety is partially a function of the pilots involved (along with mechanics, ATC, F/A's, dispatchers, etc.). I'm speaking purely from a current statistical standpoint.
 
Cruise said:
Have you ever upgraded in a 121 position? Your assumptions that seniority is why someone becomes a Captain are........ COMPLETELY FALSE! Sure, seniority allows a person to demonstrate one's ability during upgrade training to qualify to sit in the left seat. Then, there's the pesky little detail of a checkride to actually become a Captain. Gotta pass the ride.....and seniority has absolutely nothing to do with passing.

Besides, and I know it's already been mentioned....but without the seniority system to schedule upgrades, politics becomes a large determinant factor.....and that just doesn't work in high-risk careers, such as ours.
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:banghead: Really, you have to pass a checkride at your airline...wow....what's a checkride anyway? **Extreme :sarcasm:**
 
RightSeatGirl said:
:banghead: Really, you have to pass a checkride at your airline...wow....what's a checkride anyway? **Extreme :sarcasm:**
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Well, if you're aware of the checkrides (you are saying you've completed a 121 Captain ride, right?)....how is it you are so ignorant as to say seniority is the reason a person becomes Captain?


So, right back at ya.....:banghead: **No :sarcasm:** Welcome to the airline biz. :)
 
SteveC said:
You are 100% correct.

Unfortunately it is not PC to admit on a pilot oriented website that airline management (generically) actually understand the business that they operate. Pilots, as a general rule, see management as =the Evil= and it is anathema to admit anything positive about the Borg.

On the one hand it makes sense, because management's goals often conflict with the goals of pilots. Thus it is important for pilots to realize that the guys in suits will often be doing and saying things that act directly to remove money and benefits form our pockets.

On the other hand when we vilify management and denigrate them to the point that we constantly think of them as stupid and unable to think their way out of a paper bag we tend to badly underestimate them. Mistake of the first order.

I know I have already quoted this, but it bears repeating:

"So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will fight without danger in battles.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself." ~ Sun Tzu

To think that simply raising fares would solve an airline's problems is woefully ignorant of the realities of the marketplace. To blatantly accuse airline management of being stupid is to badly underestimate them. There are very smart men at the top of most airlines, and while it is important to remember that they are doing their best to reduce costs (read that as cut pilot wages and benefits), we need to constantly remind ourselves that the enemy is clever and resourceful.
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Yeah? Go tell that to UAL Mgmt that just spent $4 million on OFFICE FURNITURE in HDQ. Gee, your right, we are all just a bunch of stupid pilots that don't understand anything.
 
secretapproach said:
I wouldn't call 121 flying high-risk. If you're talking about the pilot career on the whole then yes, the death rate is relatively high compared to many other jobs.

Before the flames come: yes, I know that safety is partially a function of the pilots involved (along with mechanics, ATC, F/A's, dispatchers, etc.). I'm speaking purely from a current statistical standpoint.
Click to expand...


Yes, flying is a high-risk career. Doesn't matter if it's airline or bush flying. Is one safer than the other statistically? Of course! Airlines have done a great job at mitigating risk through rigorous and continual training....but that doesn't negate the risk involved.

Therefore, zooming through the sky, at high rates of speed, is inherently dangerous and is considered high-risk. I don't have the time or desire to look up life insurance rates, but I'd be willing to bet (again, I'm not looking up rates) airline pilots do not qualify for accountant rates. Why, because flying is dangerous. ;)
 
Cruise said:
Yes, flying is a high-risk career. Doesn't matter if it's airline or bush flying. Is one safer than the other statistically? Of course! Airlines have done a great job at mitigating risk through rigorous and continual training....but that doesn't negate the risk involved.
/quote]

We agree. 121 flying is safe because the system of pilots, dispatchers, regulators, etc. has made it safe. All I was saying is that there's a pretty reasonable chance that a 121 pilot will survive his/her day at work. There is risk in flying any airplane but statistically a 121 pilot is pretty safe at work - in large part because of his own efforts.
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Cruise said:
Well, if you're aware of the checkrides (you are saying you've completed a 121 Captain ride, right?)....how is it you are so ignorant as to say seniority is the reason a person becomes Captain?


So, right back at ya.....:banghead: **No :sarcasm:** Welcome to the airline biz. :)
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Are you five years old or something? Do the complexities of adult communication challenge and elude you? Let us review shall we...

F/o gains enough seniority to upgrade...
F/o goes to upgrade training
F/o passes upgrade training
F/o becomes captain

Hmmm, now let me see, how may I illustrate it for Captain Phonics so he can understand more precisely...

Ahole f/o that nobody likes gains enough seniority to upgrade
Ahole f/o that nobody likes goes to upgrade training
Ahole f/o that nobody likes passes upgrade training
Brand new ahole captain.

Did da witty bitty f/o go to upgwade twaining bwecwause he earwend dit...

Noooooooohh. He whebent to upgwabe twaining DUE TO SENIORITY!!!!

Pay attention, we're gonna have a quiz later....

Become hostile, call me ignorant and I'm going to treat you like a child. Speak to me with the same respect you want to be treated with and we will communicate like adults. I'll play mean as long as you want to.
 
RightSeatGirl said:
Ahole f/o that nobody likes gains enough seniority to upgrade
Ahole f/o that nobody likes goes to upgrade training
Ahole f/o that nobody likes passes upgrade training
Brand new ahole captain.
Click to expand...

You forgot: Brand new ahole captain who all the F/Os put on their no-fly list until no one will fly with him and he gets fired.

Or: Brand new ahole Captain who gets massive Pro Stan complaints until the Company can't afford to ignore him any longer and he gets fired.

There are ways to weed these toads out.
 
KLB said:
:)
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Nice....

Sorry to all for being so bitchy...I just don't respond well to mean spirited posts so when I get hit with them, I tend to amplify them right back. If one can't post in response to me without the attacker attitude then be prepared for some thread jousting..Despite my aggressive nature..I prefer neutral toned communication.
 
I don't think anyone has any problems with you. It's really just another day on JC for most of us.

As far as Jtrain goes,

Whenever I debate with him, I usually just take him outside and rough him up a bit. j/k He's really a cool cat. :)
 
RightSeatGirl said:
I too have always wondered about the logic of automatic promotion based only on seniority. Off the top of my head I can't think of any other industry that works that way. Merit, ability, skill, attitude, performance record, ability to handle supervisory authority all should be considered before putting a pilot in the left seat. Now I got not issue with seniority making one eligible for upgrade in a basic sense...but I think unions have put too much of a strangle hold an a company's ability to be more stringent on who upgrades and who does not. There are a lot of c/a's out there that have no business in the left seat. They got there due only to seniority. Why is it such taboo for this industry to be more selective when it comes to upgrade?
Click to expand...

Hmmm, it certainly seems you're stating seniority is the reason for upgrade.

RightSeatGirl said:
Both valid points. But @ Velo, that is how it is supposed to work..Not the way it goes down often. Many times the union comes to the rescue of a c/a that should have been canned as an f/o just to stick it to the company. And @ Jtrain, what about those guys that are unsafe that no one will rat on due to the whole pilot brotherhood factor because everybody likes him/her?

And yes politics would come into play..but that is how it's down in every other industry...What makes this one so different in that regard. A little bit of politics with a promotion process can do a lot for quality control. I think the answer lies somewhere between the two extremes. Neither system is without flaws and issues. But automatic promotion from seniority is just too unrestrictive. Face it, there are just some guys/gals that should just never be in the left seat.
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Same tune again in this post.

RightSeatGirl said:
Nope, most companies just let em go back to being f/o's. And also, getting through upgrade training is far from foolproof. The training environment is a different place then flying the line. Lot's of peeps make it through upgrade. Doesn't mean they are going to be competent captains. All I'm saying is that airlines should have the ability to deny upgrade to candidates that are just not a person that needs to be PIC of a transport category aircraft. Some just don't know what to do with the authority even if they make it through upgrade training.
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We're not talking about compentency.....just clarifying the fact you've stated upgrade is due to seniority...not skill to pass checkrides, etc...

Besides, the airlines DO have the ability to deny upgrade......it's called a failed checkride. Failed IOE. Failed line checks.....

Lot's of options for airlines.


RightSeatGirl said:
:banghead: Really, you have to pass a checkride at your airline...wow....what's a checkride anyway? **Extreme :sarcasm:**
Click to expand...

Tell me who is starting the personal attacks? I've merely pointed out the flaws in your statements. You counter with sarcasm. Nice touch.

RightSeatGirl said:
Are you five years old or something? Do the complexities of adult communication challenge and elude you? Let us review shall we...

F/o gains enough seniority to upgrade...
F/o goes to upgrade training
F/o passes upgrade training
F/o becomes captain

Hmmm, now let me see, how may I illustrate it for Captain Phonics so he can understand more precisely...

Ahole f/o that nobody likes gains enough seniority to upgrade
Ahole f/o that nobody likes goes to upgrade training
Ahole f/o that nobody likes passes upgrade training
Brand new ahole captain.

Did da witty bitty f/o go to upgwade twaining bwecwause he earwend dit...

Noooooooohh. He whebent to upgwabe twaining DUE TO SENIORITY!!!!

Pay attention, we're gonna have a quiz later....

Become hostile, call me ignorant and I'm going to treat you like a child. Speak to me with the same respect you want to be treated with and we will communicate like adults. I'll play mean as long as you want to.
Click to expand...

Again, nice personal attack. I'm not impressed. Perhaps you should spend more time at the 'other' site since you choose to attack rather than understand your flawed logic. Or maybe you could type slower.....'cause I only read at a third grade level. :drool:

It's been pointed out repeatedly why seniority based 'opportunities' for upgrade are in place vs. any other cockamamie scheme to do so.

So, whenever you finish with your personal/ emotional attacks and open your eyes to facts, you might understand why the current system is in place.

But hey, it's been great having this little chat w/ you. :)
 
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