SmitteyB
Well-Known Member
I agree that the CFI is not all about knowledge, its about being a TRUE pilot in command.
Newest ASA Minimums: 500/50 or 400/50
- Thread starter Cherokee_Cruiser
- Start date
I agree that the CFI is not all about knowledge, its about being a TRUE pilot in command.
Snuggle
Well-Known Member
I agree, maturity does come with age. Although there are some exceptions to both sides. I have known a few immature flight instructors as well as students. One instructor I had when I was working on my commercial, was the ''I know everything nothing will ever go wrong when I fly'' type of attitude. I had to change instructors after a few flights with him. When we were flying one night we shot an ILS back into the airport, when I went to brief to approach he tried to stop me. He told me, ''I already know everything there is to know about every approach on this airport, there is no need to brief the approach.'' He had a very argumentative attitude, so I briefed the approach outloud to myself and he yelled at me for it. Later on the ground I told him that just because you know everything, doesn't mean I do, I will still brief the approach to myself. I did not feel safe flying with him, and I did not like his attitude towards trarining. He had over 1500 hours flight time and was a lot older then I am.
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
Oh I agree, I'm just speaking in terms of averages. I've heard a few CAs say they've flown with 400 hour pilots that were great. There's always exceptions to the rule.
Timbuff10
Well-Known Member
What is the point then? 3 years ago pilots needed 250 hrs of ME time and that is what it should be now? They had to suffer, so these new guys shall too?
aloft
New Member
Yeah....everybody believes they're "above average" and so everybody wants to think THEY'RE one of those exceptions.
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"The PIC is the final authority . . . not the 450/60 kid in the right seat"
Unless you've been in the left seat of a jet, I don't expect it to make any sense. But...any airline Capt with 50 pax in the back deserves better, needs better, than to have someone next to him with so little experience. Some of you guys make it sound like the F/O is there to be trained and to learn, nothing more. That kills me cause I know there have been so many times in the last year that my highly experienced F/O's have helped me see things I've missed. The F/O's job is to assist the Capt and catch what he misses, not sit and learn. How much of an asset can a 300 hour F/O be?
Not much. But at the same time, as long as planes don't make smoking holes, nobody is really gonna care about this issue. RJ Capts, you'll have to live with it. Enjoy...
"If anyone wants to see how much I've changed my tune, go back and hit up some old threads (especially in the Mesa/PACE forum) between me and Don (DE727UPS)"
One thing that's consistent with these discussions is that it's the people without much experience, telling those with it, they are full of crap and need to accept the new world order.
My hope is that those who are proponents of low time F/O's, and how great the opportunities are in the new world, get stuck flying with guys fresh out of IOE when they are new Capts. Please report back to us how it went.
"They had to suffer, so these new guys shall too?"
If suffering for years brings a more highly experienced body to my right seat, then, yeah, you need to suffer as did I.
Unless you've been in the left seat of a jet, I don't expect it to make any sense. But...any airline Capt with 50 pax in the back deserves better, needs better, than to have someone next to him with so little experience. Some of you guys make it sound like the F/O is there to be trained and to learn, nothing more. That kills me cause I know there have been so many times in the last year that my highly experienced F/O's have helped me see things I've missed. The F/O's job is to assist the Capt and catch what he misses, not sit and learn. How much of an asset can a 300 hour F/O be?
Not much. But at the same time, as long as planes don't make smoking holes, nobody is really gonna care about this issue. RJ Capts, you'll have to live with it. Enjoy...
"If anyone wants to see how much I've changed my tune, go back and hit up some old threads (especially in the Mesa/PACE forum) between me and Don (DE727UPS)"
One thing that's consistent with these discussions is that it's the people without much experience, telling those with it, they are full of crap and need to accept the new world order.
My hope is that those who are proponents of low time F/O's, and how great the opportunities are in the new world, get stuck flying with guys fresh out of IOE when they are new Capts. Please report back to us how it went.
"They had to suffer, so these new guys shall too?"
If suffering for years brings a more highly experienced body to my right seat, then, yeah, you need to suffer as did I.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
I think what Merit was saying is that it's not about being able to do a Vmc demo or a single engine ILS. You were right before when you doubted if an RJ could flip you over if you lost an engine on rotation. A V1 cut is actually pretty easy. The stab trim is set for the plane to rotate at V2 so all you have to do is keep it going straight with the rudder. I did a few V1 cuts in the sim last time where I didn't even touch the yoke. Rudder to keep the plane tracking straight and then like magic at V2 it will lift off. You don't need ANY multi engine time to do that. (A TR deployment is a whole different story though).
The point is that with more time you will have better decision making skills. Should I descend now or wait? Wat rate do I need? Do I need flaps yet? Is the landing unstable enough that I should go around? The weather is XXXX do I need an alternate? If I start hydroplaning on take off what should I do? There are thousands of things that you will see for the first time in an airplane. I would bet even 15,000 hour captains see new stuff every trip.
Just because this thread is about ASA, and ASA screwed me over the other day, here's a story that ties in nicely to what we are talking about here.
I was working Charlotte to Jacksonville, NC. It's an uncontrolled field with a 6000 foot north-south runway. The airspace overhead is controlled by Wilmington Approach and there is restricted airspace 4 miles to the east. We were out of 5000 feet with the field in sight arriving from the west when an ASA plan called up Wilmington to request release. They said they were ready to go. So, ILM cleared them to fly runway heading off of the south runway up to 10000, void if not off in 8 minutes. We were told that ILM had released an aircraft and to plan to overfly the field and enter the left downwind (no right traffic for the airport even with the restricted airspace because the airport manager is an idiot). As we crossed over the field (I was talking on CTAF and ILM) we both looked for an RJ departing the runway. There wasn't any. We looked on TCAS to see if he had already left. No RJ. We looked down at the gates, and sure enough, there was the ASA plane just pushing back. So, we turned downwind and tower told us to expect a turn to base shortly. I was about to inform him that the ASA plane wasn't off the ground yet and we could still see it when he turned us a dogleg final. At that point the ASA plane was about halfway to the runway. We were still at 3000 feet about 3 miles from the runway completely unconfigured. ILM says something like "huh... I still don't have that departure on radar." I then tell him that that is because the guy is just taxiing out now. Of course right then he busts his void time and calls up ILM to ask for another one. Meanwhile they think we are still east of the airport and ask us to do a 360 and then enter the left downwind while he gets the departure out. Of course by now we are WAY past the airport to the west about abeam midfield. I tell him we will turn back to the north and make a right base to final. He says that is fine, ASA reports airborn and just as we turn final a King Air takes off going the other way, and makes an early turn as to not hit us on the way in.
The moral to my story is 2 things.
First, ASA, don't call for release at the gate in OAJ. It screws up everything.
Second, I am no super pilot at all (well, actually, pilot not flying), but there is NO WAY that a 500/50 hour pilot would have their head in the game enough to keep track of 2 radios, an airport, an airplane on the ground, restricted airspace and the airplane's handling characteristics in order to know if and when we could have actually made the runway.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
So Don, does that mean that you won't be applying for a street captain position at ASA?
:laff:
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Don't get me wrong Don, I'm agreeing with you on a number of issues, and Low time FO's at 400-500 hours is one of them. I hope my original post didn't give the image that I support such, or the idea that F/O's are only there to learn.
My reason for saying the PIC is the final authority was simply a matter of convience, and to reaffirm the fact that the FO is not the only one on the flightdeck in the 121 environment where these 400-500 hour wonders are sitting. Hope that makes sense.
Timbuff10
Well-Known Member
Hey, I totally understand what you guys are saying. I don't claim to know a whole lot but I do know that when people who have "been there and done that" start talking, it is a good idea to listen.
Ideally, yes, you would want to always have the most experienced pilots available. Common sense tells us this. Only problem is, this whole airline game is a business and money talks. Like it or not, all these guys are legally qualified to fly the planes they are flying. Until the FAA changes their rules, and the bean counters decide that it is cheaper to hire more qualified people, don't be surprised to see people with 200TT/50sim/ and the minimum multi (I think it's 10hrs, right?) flying jets.
As for my comment about the suffering. It just seems that some of the people who were hired a few years ago (especially around 9/11) do have that attitude toward guys getting hired at the low times of today. I just think that being bitter about it isn't helping anyone, and I am not saying you guys are voicing that at all.
Ideally, yes, you would want to always have the most experienced pilots available. Common sense tells us this. Only problem is, this whole airline game is a business and money talks. Like it or not, all these guys are legally qualified to fly the planes they are flying. Until the FAA changes their rules, and the bean counters decide that it is cheaper to hire more qualified people, don't be surprised to see people with 200TT/50sim/ and the minimum multi (I think it's 10hrs, right?) flying jets.
As for my comment about the suffering. It just seems that some of the people who were hired a few years ago (especially around 9/11) do have that attitude toward guys getting hired at the low times of today. I just think that being bitter about it isn't helping anyone, and I am not saying you guys are voicing that at all.
H46Bubba
Well-Known Member
KLB
Well-Known Member
It's all a game of supply and demand with the regionals these days. If they need more pilots, they lower their mins. If don't need many pilots, their mins level off or go up higher.
It's a big difference in who the ideal FO the captain would like sitting next to him as compared to who management puts next to him.
Just an opinion of a freight dog though.
It's a big difference in who the ideal FO the captain would like sitting next to him as compared to who management puts next to him.
Just an opinion of a freight dog though.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Which brings up another can of worms, Kelvin. The regionals are hurting and lowering their minimums, potentially taking a lot of the guys that WOULD have been willing to stick it out the other 200 hours to get on with someone like Ameriflight. Talking to some of the guys there, it sounds like you're getting pretty short staffed over there, too. How long before 135 mins start going lower in order to get people in the seats? Now we're talking single pilot, IFR at night. It's a VERY slippery slope. The public might not care too much about places like Flight Express or Ameriflight (as long as their package arrives before 10 AM at least), but to me that's another tragedy.
KLB
Well-Known Member
My company will have to stick with strict 1200 500 and 75 because going with the VFR 135 minimums just wouldn't work in most of the places we fly. I'm shooting approaches in SOCAL just about every day because of fog and smog. And its even worse most of everywhere else throughout the system.
My guess is that 135 companies will have to increase the pay significantly to keep people coming. It's all supply and demand. If pay is increased pilots would be more willing to stick around instructing to build time to meet 135 mins. When I mean an increase in pay, I'm talking about a first year piston driver making three times more than a first year regional FO. It's the only way that 135 outfits will be able to stay in business. So be preprared to pay a little extra to send those christmas gifts to the family.
The real golden carrot in years to come will be flight instructing. I would keep those CFI tickets current. Just look at the jobs available section. Most of who's hurting for employees are flight schools. Flight schools will also have to increase pay to flight instructors to keep them around longer. I was talkiing to the owner of the flight school where I used to instruct yesterday about how bad he was hurting for instructors. He has over 50 students and only four full time instructors. All of the others have been getting hired by the regionals.
Its a continous cycle though. People will stick around instructing longer as flight schools dish out more cash to keep them. The regionals will have to increase the pay to get pilots to stop instructing and holding out for the 135 gigs. And we will be back at square one.
Thats my opinion.
