Newest ASA Minimums: 500/50 or 400/50

[SmitteyB]

ALOT of this was ExpressJet drying up the 600-1000 hour pool all last year.

Supply and demand at it's best. Simple economics.

Demand is high as majors begin to slowing regain composure, regionals begin growing to offset major costs> Need more pilots.

Now I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the amount of AMERICAN pilots being trained has got to be down in the last 15 years. Not to mention the military is retaining more. This isn't just people willing to fly for nothing.

 

[Timbuff10]

This is just crazy!!! I'm a low-time guy...but am I the only one wondering how long it will be before some kid in a CRJ with 450/60 will get killed in the right seat???

Would you suspect his inexperience or the fact that he and the captain were probably fatigued from sleeping on the plane the night before or doing a "highspeed" or something like that?

 

[surreal1221]

This is just crazy!!! I'm a low-time guy...but am I the only one wondering how long it will be before some kid in a CRJ with 450/60 will get killed in the right seat???

The PIC is the final authority . . . not the 450/60 kid in the right seat, even more so when he is PNF.

Let's not start this whole can of warms, feel free to rehash one of the old threads about how "dangerous" low time wonders are in the RJ environment.

I have to say that I am slowly getting tired of the impression that even 450/60 or lower pilots lack the professionalism that is (in my low amount of crew management education) require inside the cockpit of a 121 operator.

Total time is no sign of how little professionalism someone may have - I'm sure you can find some of the most professional and safe 450 hour wonders flying around - do I agree with it? No, not at all . . . but so long as they are professional in the flightdeck, and towards the passengers and their fellow employees - I don't give a rats ass how much TT a pilot has. Safety is #1, and I'm sure a good number of 450 wonders have more safety sense than some 1200-1500TT jockey.

But hey - I didn't want to get into this, so really - let's go rehash this out in one of the many threads that this topic has already been discussed in.

 

[B767]

The PIC is the final authority . . . not the 450/60 kid in the right seat, even more so when he is PNF.

Let's not start this whole can of warms, feel free to rehash one of the old threads about how "dangerous" low time wonders are in the RJ environment.

I have to say that I am slowly getting tired of the impression that even 450/60 or lower pilots lack the professionalism that is (in my low amount of crew management education) require inside the cockpit of a 121 operator.

Total time is no sign of how little professionalism someone may have - I'm sure you can find some of the most professional and safe 450 hour wonders flying around - do I agree with it? No, not at all . . . but so long as they are professional in the flightdeck, and towards the passengers and their fellow employees - I don't give a rats ass how much TT a pilot has. Safety is #1, and I'm sure a good number of 450 wonders have more safety sense than some 1200-1500TT jockey.

But hey - I didn't want to get into this, so really - let's go rehash this out in one of the many threads that this topic has already been discussed in.

:yeahthat:

I'm pretty sure that the 450/60 and 1200/200 pilots will both be equally inexperienced when it comes to their first RJ flight blitzing down the ILS to mins.

I also don't agree with it though. Just the current environment we live in right now.

 

[meritflyer]

Seriously though, will a single engine CRJ or ERJ roll you over in the event of an engine failure? I am sure it pulls, but I doubt it is as dangerous as a Baron or something of that nature. I mean, the thrust is right there pretty close to the center line of the aircraft in most of those RJs. Do jets even have critical engines?

I can see Tprop operators wanting more multi time but for the jet carriers I would think knowing all about Vmc and critical engines aren't quite as important. The design of the Saab340 looks like it wold be a handful. Even the 1900s and the Bros have T-tails.

Not trying to ruffle feathers, just wondering if my thoughts are possibly correct?

Dude, you're missing the point. Completely.

 

[meritflyer]

I'm pretty sure that the 450/60 and 1200/200 pilots will both be equally inexperienced when it comes to their first RJ flight blitzing down the ILS to mins.

I also don't agree with it though. Just the current environment we live in right now.

I cant believe I am reading this...

Oh wait..

 

[B767]

nevermind

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Well, I'll out myself and say that for a guy with supreme hopes of getting on with Delta. ASA being my #1 choice in regionals airlines, I find myself cautiously excited by the prospect of lower hours at the place that I most want to be.

Now, if I haven't already lost you with the last sentence and you're still paying attention. At times I too can suffer from "get-there-itis". However, I'm not sure if we as pilots should be excited by the prospect of lowered mins for low pay. ASA is currently in a #### storm with no contract in 5 years, morale dead and pilots leaving en mass numbers and no future in sight.

ASA needs pilots, and instead of management working to improve relations on all levels like completing a fair contract. They lower mins to get the star struck low time pilots to man their cockpits. For the thrill of flying a jet, for low pay. Yes, I see it for what it is.

That being said lets hope that I stick to a plan that JH and I talked about when he last called me two weeks ago! It's a good plan!

 

[Murdoughnut]

IMO, they wont. Give it 2-3 years they'll be 1200/200.

I know these things are cyclical, but I don't know this time. Look at the reasons for the mins lowering:

1) Higher cost of training due to fuel price increases: Unlikely to change
2) Lowering of salaries for commercial pilots (over time): Unlikely to change
3) Lower standard of living for pilots: Unlikely to change due to the proliferation of low cost and regional carriers

No rational person should become a pilot, plain and simple. The only folks who should pursue it are those that can't live without it.

 

[kellwolf]

I'm with Murdoughnut. I think the mins will climb back up, but I doubt they'll break the 1000TT mark again. The cost of training is WAY too high right now. If the price of gas goes back down, and schools lower their costs accordingly instead of leaving them high, then maybe. If I hadn't gotten my ratings when I did (right before the huge spike in prices), I'd be having second thoughts myself. As it is, I managed to do it cheap enough that I'm not living in a box and eating beans out of a can every night as a first year FO. Now.....I don't think I could do it that cheaply.

It's not really a case of "Is the low time wonder gonna kill the people in the back." The CA would have to be a complete zone out for that to happen. The problem is the increased workload on the CA brought about by a low time pilot. I've flown with a couple of CAs in the past month that have recently flown with the low time guys. One had to stop himself from doing the stuff I was supposed to do b/c he said he was pretty much single pilot for a week b/c the other guy kept phasing out, forgetting stuff and was generally overwhelmed, sometimes by just ATC calls. The CA also found out that when they hit the clouds on an approach, it was the first time the guy had ever been in IMC. WTF? The other CA said he had to save several landings from his last FO. I asked them if this was a new thing or if it always happened, and BOTH said that this pretty much has started with the low time, inexperienced guys and gals. We had one FO as the PNF on an apporach to mins FORGET TO MAKE THE CALL OUTS. Total silence from the before landing checklist to clearing the runway. No "100 above minimums," no "runway in sight," no "spoilers green," etc. Just frozen. Rumor has it that when they cleared the runway, his exact word was..... "Cool."

Is it unsafe for the passengers to have the low timers as an FO? Nope, they've got the CA up there to bail them out, which is what the airlines and flight schools bank on. The problem is what happens when an already overly stressed/not well rested CA gets paired with one of these guys? It's not fair to the CA to have a required crewmember not quite up to where he should be.

 

[Ian_J]

Kell, forgive my ignorance on 121 training, but don't your training programs and IOE identify, correct, or eliminate these problem FOs? I've always heard such great things about 121 training...

 

[SmitteyB]

Is it unsafe for the passengers to have the low timers as an FO? Nope, they've got the CA up there to bail them out, which is what the airlines and flight schools bank on.

I completely agree, and the airlines and flight schools take advantage of it. When minimums go up, its going to be nice to see what happens to some of these get an "airline job FAST" in these direct track programs.

Let's be fair, not all low timers have those problems...

On ATPs website they had a guy get hired with 350TT at Pinnacle...in a jet! Wow.

 

[kellwolf]

Kell, forgive my ignorance on 121 training, but don't your training programs and IOE identify, correct, or eliminate these problem FOs? I've always heard such great things about 121 training...

If you can play video games and memorize profiles, you can pass sim training. The problem is, you hardly EVER fly the profiles in real life. That leaves the new FOs totally clueless as to when to slow down, drop flaps and drop the gear. IOE can fix SOME of the problems, but you don't have near enough time to fix them all. Plus, you've got scheduling working against you. For example, I was having trouble with my visual approaches, and all of my OE CAs knew it. They told scheduling that. So what does scheduling do? Gives me a 4 day trip with 2 DHs, long overnights and about 6 landings. I wound up having to have my OE extended to get more visual approaches in.

Plus, no 121 training in the world can substitute for raw experience. As a OE CA, they can't say "Well, you've never been in IMC, so we're going to go find some" like a CFI can. You may or may not get a diversion on OE. My first diversion was two weeks after OE. You may not even get any significant WX on OE. As an FO, you can get very lucky, skip all the major decision making events and breeze through OE. That first CA I was talking about (the one with the guy with no IMC) told me his FO even said a few times "I don't know what's wrong. I flew the sim fine. I don't know why I'm having trouble with the real thing." Truth is, the sim only flies somewhat like the real plane. I went back into the sim for Cat II training, and it was UGLY. I was in the habit of the control forces (or at least the hydraulic equivalent) of the real thing and wound up landing when I was trying to go around b/c I didn't pull up hard enough. If I had done it like that in the real plane, I would have at LEAST gotten the continuous ignition, maybe the shaker.

The point is, no 121 training program can identify all the gaps that could potentially exist in a low time pilot. They were designed to take pilots with a moderate or better amount of experience and transfer that experience to a bigger, faster airplane. The programs were never designed to take someone with little or no experience and get them that experience before they're ready to go out on their own. To truly make the programs work for low timers, IMO,they'd need to be totally re-designed. In our situation, we're too understaffed and too short on check airmen for us to extended OE 40 hours because an FO doesn't "get it."

 

[kellwolf]

Let's be fair, not all low timers have those problems...

Oh, I agree. A lot of it is up to the individual. I've seen some low time guys that can run circles around some 1200-1500 hour guys. I've heard of the exact opposite end of the spectrum as well, though. When you lower the mins, that has to be expected. If the mins were higher and you made exceptions for the good low timers, then you might keep some of the guys that need a little more experience out there getting the experience. Some of the stories I hear from some of the CAs here just scares the heck out of me. What if I'm DHing on one of those flights and the CA decides to shuffle off the mortal coil, leaving that FO the only one in control?

 

[Blip16]

On ATPs website they had a guy get hired with 350TT at Pinnacle...in a jet! Wow.

a UND student got hired last fall, not graduated and 280TT for Pinnacle

 

[Ian_J]

If you can play video games and memorize profiles, you can pass sim training. The problem is, you hardly EVER fly the profiles in real life. That leaves the new FOs totally clueless as to when to slow down, drop flaps and drop the gear. IOE can fix SOME of the problems, but you don't have near enough time to fix them all. Plus, you've got scheduling working against you. For example, I was having trouble with my visual approaches, and all of my OE CAs knew it. They told scheduling that. So what does scheduling do? Gives me a 4 day trip with 2 DHs, long overnights and about 6 landings. I wound up having to have my OE extended to get more visual approaches in.

Plus, no 121 training in the world can substitute for raw experience. As a OE CA, they can't say "Well, you've never been in IMC, so we're going to go find some" like a CFI can. You may or may not get a diversion on OE. My first diversion was two weeks after OE. You may not even get any significant WX on OE. As an FO, you can get very lucky, skip all the major decision making events and breeze through OE. That first CA I was talking about (the one with the guy with no IMC) told me his FO even said a few times "I don't know what's wrong. I flew the sim fine. I don't know why I'm having trouble with the real thing." Truth is, the sim only flies somewhat like the real plane. I went back into the sim for Cat II training, and it was UGLY. I was in the habit of the control forces (or at least the hydraulic equivalent) of the real thing and wound up landing when I was trying to go around b/c I didn't pull up hard enough. If I had done it like that in the real plane, I would have at LEAST gotten the continuous ignition, maybe the shaker.

The point is, no 121 training program can identify all the gaps that could potentially exist in a low time pilot. They were designed to take pilots with a moderate or better amount of experience and transfer that experience to a bigger, faster airplane. The programs were never designed to take someone with little or no experience and get them that experience before they're ready to go out on their own. To truly make the programs work for low timers, IMO,they'd need to be totally re-designed. In our situation, we're too understaffed and too short on check airmen for us to extended OE 40 hours because an FO doesn't "get it."

Thanks for the answer! I was just curious.

This is similar to how things work in the Army. After 200 hours or less of flight school you get shipped to a unit, where they do about 15 hours or so of IOE-type training. Then you are signed off to fly with a PIC (or "Captain.")

The weakest thing I saw with the new guys was ADM skills, and handling things not covered in training (which is pretty much everything), and some new guys were awesome, and some could barely be trusted to work the radios.

 

[meritflyer]

Well, I'll out myself and say that for a guy with supreme hopes of getting on with Delta. ASA being my #1 choice in regionals airlines, I find myself cautiously excited by the prospect of lower hours at the place that I most want to be.

Now, if I haven't already lost you with the last sentence and you're still paying attention. At times I too can suffer from "get-there-itis". However, I'm not sure if we as pilots should be excited by the prospect of lowered mins for low pay. ASA is currently in a #### storm with no contract in 5 years, morale dead and pilots leaving en mass numbers and no future in sight.

ASA needs pilots, and instead of management working to improve relations on all levels like completing a fair contract. They lower mins to get the star struck low time pilots to man their cockpits. For the thrill of flying a jet, for low pay. Yes, I see it for what it is.

That being said lets hope that I stick to a plan that JH and I talked about when he last called me two weeks ago! It's a good plan!

I personally wouldnt touch ASA right now with a 1000' pole. Friends at SKYW say their ground schools are filled with ASA guys every date that jumped as fast as they could outta there. Sounds like a serious mess over there. Whats the big attraction to ASA Max? Why not XJT, PCL, Mesa, SKYW, ect?

 

[Murdoughnut]

Oh, I agree. A lot of it is up to the individual. I've seen some low time guys that can run circles around some 1200-1500 hour guys. I've heard of the exact opposite end of the spectrum as well, though. When you lower the mins, that has to be expected. If the mins were higher and you made exceptions for the good low timers, then you might keep some of the guys that need a little more experience out there getting the experience. Some of the stories I hear from some of the CAs here just scares the heck out of me. What if I'm DHing on one of those flights and the CA decides to shuffle off the mortal coil, leaving that FO the only one in control?

I was thinking about this today, and I wonder if the primary factor here isn't experience, but maturity. If you think about it, the 400 hour pilot is going to be, on average, younger than the 1200 hour pilot. Now not to say there's anything wrong with being young, but face it, age and maturity are correlated. If you're talking about call-outs and the like, that seems like a lack of preparation more than anything to me. Seems like the type of thing a 400 hour and 1200 hour pilot would likely have equal exposure to. I just have to think that to fly over 1000 hours, you had to have had a considerable amount of drive, patience, and desire - I question whether the 250 hour guy coming out of Mesa's PACE program is as likely to have these traits.

 

[kellwolf]

A little bit of background on me and this subject for those that haven't been here for over a year or two:

I used to be one of those guys wanting to go to PACE. I made the arguement that, sure, a focused program could turn out a sub-300TT pilot of the quality to fly a jet. Keep in mind, I was making these statements at about 200-210TT and 10 ME. Translation: I had no clue what I was talking about. Even at 252TT and a CMEL ticket, I thought I knew a lot. It wasn't until I started CFI training that I realized something. I didn't know crap. My experience level in real world flying was fair due to some weather flying during my time building days in Florida. Do I think I was close to being ready to fly a jet? Hell no. I had no business being in a King Air, either. Why? I didn't have the experience yet to make those decisions going that speed in an aircraft that large. After long days of instructing for several months, I finally felt I was getting that necessary experience. I was learning to work with another person in the plane and making the decisions when things went wrong. Before, it was MY instructor that would make those decisions. Now that it was me doing the teaching, it was my ship and my cert on the line. It makes a big difference from looking at the instructor and saying "Okay, what now?" Some of the guys coming into the 121 world with low time have done nothing BUT that. The instructor has been there to hold their hand, and the CA is still there. They haven't had the opportunity (many of them at least) to make those decisions, and they might not until time to upgrade. Sure, they've got the knowledge and maybe the skills. But do they have the balls and the brain to make the right call when the chips are down? We don't know. I'm betting some do, and some won't. There's no experience record to pull from. I'm actually kinda curious how they answer the interview question "Tell me about a time when you had a problem in the airplane?" Unless they had something happen on a rare solo flight (possibly extremely rare if they came up 141), they might have no stories.

If anyone wants to see how much I've changed my tune, go back and hit up some old threads (especially in the Mesa/PACE forum) between me and Don (DE727UPS). I used to argue against him all the time. Now we're on the same side.

 

[Snuggle]

Even at 252TT and a CMEL ticket, I thought I knew a lot. It wasn't until I started CFI training that I realized something. I didn't know crap.

word, when I started studying for my CFI training I realized the how little I know. The more you learn the more you realize how much you don't know.