New Program

Alaska

New Member
Aviator,

Good Point! I hadn't thought about the single vs multi ATP Cert. Is there a single vs a multi ATP Cert.?
 

blee256

Well-Known Member
Hey james,
Havent made a decision yet, huh? Well I just did my first lesson at a local FBO here in So cal. I flew for about an hour in a 152. I couldnt imagine spending 1500 hours in one.

this is the first I have heard about ATA's new program. I am not diggin it. If your going to fly 1500 hours might as well get the CFi and get paid for it instead of paying for it. i would say that the big plus about going to ATA was that it was shorter and no need for the CFI. But if its going to take you the same amount of time as any other school then is not worth it. Between ATA's new program and Comair's. I would choose Comair. And like we discussed ATA has a lot of promises and we werent sure if ATA could deliver them. Comair seems the better route in my opinion. and I always thought that comair was the safe way to go. ATA cost guarenteed it to be 55K. Comair suggests that their program is about 54K and joney said to have about a 10% cushion. A guy I met at FSI told me he got all his ratings minus CFI for 54K and that included housing and all his supplies. thats cheaper than ATA. And then you tack on another 5k or so for CFI, MEI, and CFII. and now your earning money. It isnt a lot but its better than paying 37 an hour to fly. He also told me that a lot of the students are slackers. So they dont have the motivation you might have. So if you are on the ball and fly everyday, 2, 3 times a day then you'll ge thru the program quicker. He finished is about 6 or 7 months. So i think you can too.

And my mentor said if he had to choose between a candidate who was an instructor and a person who paid to fly he would hire the one who had to sweat it out and teach rather than the guy who paid to fly. He is on the interview panel at an airline, so I kind of listen to him when it comes to things like this.

Also I hear about more pilots being hired from CAA than any other academy. but thats just me.

I think with the choices you have you cant go wrong if you have the dedication and drive. You seem very determined to get to the airlines and not dick around while your in school. so whichever school you go to, i am sure you'll come out with what you want. good luck.


-Brian
 

Alaska

New Member
Brian,

Thanks for the post. I'm not interested in ATA's program but I don't think that it hurts to gain more knowledge. I hope things are working out well for you at the local FBO. If all goes as I hope then I will start at Comair Jan. 30th. To all the rest of you good luck as well. I hope that all of us reach our end goal.
 

ERJ-135

New Member
Most of the posters have missed the importance of the multi-engine/ATP Certificate that they would get if they do training at ATA. It is not a simple program of just time building. The students, enrolled in the ATP program, are still required to complete AirStage’s I and II, along with the time build for the ATP Certificate. The students will take an ATP-multi-engine check ride at the end of their completion of AirStage II. If new students have previous flight time and ratings, they are given credit for their efforts and the price is adjusted accordingly.

Lets look at the schools mentioned in this message thread.

Example ATA: ATA students now have the choice of training for the ATP-multi-engine certificate, enroll in AirStage’s I II & III, or AirStage’s I & II, or just AirStage II. It covers all of the potential requirements of the students and the requirements of the regional airlines that are now hiring ATA’s students. All ATA students are required to complete AirStage II. The students now have a wide choice of flight training programs that will fit their budget and time requirements. The ATP program will allow a student to apply at various regional airlines, not just the ones ATA has a “Bridge Program” with. ATA’s flight training programs now range from minimum 400 hours to 1500 hours, and will take from five to estimated 22 months, depending on the flight time prior to enrollment.

Example CA/FS: Students that go the traditional route at Comair or Flight Safety, receive the CFI’s that are required, teach for the next year or more (that’s based on getting hired at the academy in the first place), and apply with the regional airlines having 1200 tt and 100 multi. Limited choice for sure. The academies offer a modified bridge program, but most of you do not go this route.

Example ATA: Airline First Officer applicant with ATP-multi-engine, 1500 hrs tt/ 130 hrs multi, and completion of First Officer training at ATA.

Example CA/FS: Airline First Officer applicant from Comair or Flight Safety, with CFI’s, 1200 hrs tt/ 100 hrs multi.

Regional airlines will choose “A” over “CA/FS”, in all but a few examples, because applicant “A” holds an ATP-multi-engine with 1500 hours total time. The ATA student has completed their First Officer training program. The “A” applicant already has received the required certificate to hold the Captains seat. They just lack airline experience. Applicant “CA/FS” has a ways to go and still must pass the ATP check ride. This is an unknown quality of applicant “CA/FS”

Which school has the best flight-training program for the airlines? It all depends on the students needs and what they think is best for their own future career. Not all pilots are suitable for the CFI route. If time is of importance, due to age, family, etc., the ATA program seems like the best choice. Is it more advantageous to spend $55K and receive an ATP-multi-engine certificate, or to spend $55K at a traditional flight training academy and only receive the CFI certificate?

The debate goes on and will never be solved on message boards.
 

aviator

New Member
There are a lot of routes to the cockpit of an airline, my suggestion is do your research and pick the one that fits you the best. I have never been up to ATA to check them out, but I'm sure their programs work for some people.

I will clear up one small point, an instructor at FSI with 1200tt will most likely have around 900 hours of dual given and 500 hours of multi time due to the structure of the program. This is time gained thru employement, while applicant "A" has never held a flight job before. That changes the comparision to a certain degree.
 

Alaska

New Member
This is getting harder every day!!!!!!!!!!!!! As of this morning I was filling out the paper work for Comair. Then I got a phone call from ATA. Steve Drumond called to tell me that last Friday SkyWest signed on to their new 1500 atp program. This changes things for me a lot because SkyWest is my first choice as a regional. I live in Utah, and want to return, and they are based here. I still have concerns about ATA but this has given ATA a big plus. I called a friend at SkyWest headquarters in St. George, Utah and he is going to talk to Bill Boise and get the inside info for me. Also, the ATP cert. is a multi-ATP certificate.
What do all of you think????
 
Not sure the details of the program, but I will tell you that Skywest just hired 7 CFI's from UVSC at near minimums. UVSC does not have any formal agreements with anybody, including Skywest.
 

Alaska

New Member
The final verdict!

Honest information is SOOOO important. It is also too bad that in life who you know is so important. My friend at SkyWest was able to connect me with the director of flight standards at S.W.. He was very open and honest and a huge help.

I am not one to bash people or schools but I have ruled ATA out for good!

The Director of Flight Standards is the person that ATA had spoken with about their "agreement to interview ATA students" he was able to give me his view of the verbal conversation that he and ATA had and without going into details it seems that the two are on different pages.

Although I don't like to bash or talk trash about schools/academies here I go. When a school constantly lies/misleads potential students it is wrong and dishonest.
We are not talking about where to go for scout camp or on vacation. We are talking about peoples lives, careers, dreams, and a lot of money. I realize that all academies try to make themselves look good but at some point it goes past looking good and becomes fraud. I believe people/schools know when they have crossed this line but in order to make a buck they will tell you whatever you want to here.

I realize that for many people ATA is the right place for them. I truly wish them the best. I hope that ATA can give them everything it has promised. As for me, all along I have been worried about their credibility and in my mind they continue to comfirm this concern.
 

pscraig

Well-Known Member
How did this discussion end up in the FlightSafety forum? Seems like a topic for the ATA forum.
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
Umm, I think you missed the ATA forum by a few clicks there, Alaska!
 

chunk75

Well-Known Member
Though not directly about FSI, I think it is a good example of why I'm here and not there....

Chunk
 

Alaska

New Member
How did this discussion end up in the FlightSafety forum? Seems like a topic for the ATA forum.
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Umm, I think you missed the ATA forum by a few clicks there, Alaska!
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Think about it, why would I ask for advise about ATA in FSI's or any other academies forum?
 

ERJ-135

New Member
Question for Alaska

The next time you are in the market to buy a car, will you call the car’s maker and ask to speak with the President of production to find out how the car is made and whether the ads for the car are true or not?

Why would you call the Director of Flight Standards, at an airline, and ask whether they have and agreement with one of the flight schools? Did you ever consider that this person is not the final decision maker? Did you consider he was not involved in the decision process and was a little ticked off?

I would fault ATA for early release of this information if it were not on paper. Perhaps it was still in the talking stages and was released prematurely. Looking at the requirements for SkyWest pilot applicants, all that is needed is 1,000 hours total flight time, 100 hours multi-engine time, 100 instrument flight time. It seems that the new ATP-multi-engine program at ATA more than qualifies their students for SkyWest, and that no agreement is necessary between the school and SkyWest. Did you consider this before you made the call? How do you know that Bill Boise is the only person that ATA talked with?

If you look at the ads for most of the flight schools, airlines that have hired students from that school are usually listed with their logo. This does not mean that the school has a contract or working agreement with that airline. All it means is the school got permission to list the airlines on the schools web site.

It is not in the student’s best interest to call every airline and ask whether they have an agreement with a particular flight school. All a perspective student has to do is ask for references of former students that fly for that airline. Another way is to ask for a copy of the agreement that the school has with that airline. Remember, the school will not necessarily be able to provided a list of students flying with a particular airline unless that student has given permission.

If you want to start your pilot career at SkyWest, it seems like ATA has the right program. Their flight training program will allow you to apply at SkyWest with the required flight hours and advanced airline procedure training. If you ask Flight Safety and Comair, they probably will tell you they have former students flying with SkyWest. Do you see SkyWest listed in their ads?
 

Alaska

New Member
ERJ-135
It helps to understand the entire story and I will leave it at that.

Just for the record. Bill Boise asked me to call him and he was as nice and helpful as could be.

And yes, it helps to have as much info as possible before you spend $55K dollars. Maybe you don't like to know the truth but I do!
 

ERJ-135

New Member
Alaska

Please explain: " It helps to understand the entire story and I will leave it at that."(Alaska)

What is the entire story? We are all waiting to hear your side of the conversation. You brought it up, so lets all the readers in on your little secret.

This thread should have started in the ATA thread instead of the Flight Safety Academy thread. I'm beginning to wonder if you work for Flight Safety.
 

Alaska

New Member
ERJ,
Good luck to you and ATA.

I posted here because I wanted to get as much diverse input as possible. ATA has a similiar post and it had five different people respond. By posting at FSI I was able to get a larger info base from people with diverse backgrounds and knowledge. (fifteen different people posted.) If you wanted to learn as much as you could would you rather talk to 5 people or 15?
 

CLR4ILS

Well-Known Member
It sounds a little like ERJ-135 works for ATA. Having a hard time drumming up students are ya?

Another opinion on ATA's program:
IF... the time building to 1500 TT was all X-country in IMC or simulated IMC (hood) and had some kind of LOFT program tied to it, it would not be that bad (other than flying the 152). Without a LOFT program tied to it with set procedures and CRM, it is worthless. Two guy's punching holes in the sky without an objective is a waste of money. The safety pilot thing is another issue.

As for ERJ-135 comparing ATA to Flight Safety, nice try.... There is no comparison. I would gladly choose Flight Safety's program and instruct to 1200TT/600ME finishing up being about as proficient as one can be with that amount of time over any program ATA has to offer. Here's a scenario for you. Two pilots interview with say SKYWEST. Flight Safety's candidate has 1200/600/CFI/II/MEI VS ATA's candidate with 1500/135 and ATP. Who do think will land the job? I will put my money on Safety. The training and experience you receive at FSA as a student, an instructor, and in the ASA program cannot be touched by ATA. Hey, didn't 20 or so of ATA's instructors pack up and come over to Flight Safety a year ago looking for a job? Seems like I heard that somewhere. Hmmm.

Alaska,
Why haven't you looked at Flight Safety? If you completed the CIME program followed by the ASA program here you would be a lot better off for about the same amount of money. Also, if ATA told you that Skywest was ON BOARD with them and they are not, I wouldn't be happy either. I haven't heard of Skywest getting on board with anyone come to think of it. Has anyone else? Good luck with your decision. ILS
 

chunk75

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Two pilots interview with say SKYWEST. Flight Safety's candidate has 1200/600/CFI/II/MEI VS ATA's candidate with 1500/135 and ATP. Who do think will land the job? I will put my money on Safety.


[/ QUOTE ]

Heck, I think any CFI with those times would smoke the ATP with the 152 type rating. It's like having 10,000 hours flying the same pipeline in VFR only conditions. Okay, you learned something in your first 500 hours...what did you learn in the last 9500?

Chunk
 

Alaska

New Member
CLR4ILS,
I have looked into FSI and I think that it has a great program. The multi time is awesome and the training is solid. A large factor for me is time. If FSI didn't have such a long waiting list to become a CFI I would strongly look at attending FSI. It appears to me that 0-1200 hrs will take about 32 months when you factor in the wait. I'm not saying that 32 months is all that bad but for my own needs I need to get done as fast as possible. I expect to be at Comair for about 24 months 0-1000 hrs.
 

chunk75

Well-Known Member
Comair will make you an instructor right away, but kick you out on your ear after 800 dual given. At that point you'll only have about 100 multi. Then what? Ya gonna get a regional job with those times? Highly unlikely.

If you don't believe me on those numbers...go ask them. I got those numbers from a CFI when I was there.

Chunk
 
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