New FAR 117 rest rules should be revised.

I'd rather strand a bunch of passengers in Podunk than get them as close to their destination as I can, whereupon I fall asleep and kill all of us.

I've called out fatigued before, and I'm quite sure I'll do it again at some point.

There ARE objective items you can look at if you're paying attention. Sleep deficit is a big one, and you should start to notice performance degradation as your sleep deficit increases. If you've only slept 6 hours a night for 4 nights, and you normally sleep 8 hours per night, then you're loaded up for disaster.

Further, if your airline isn't teaching this, they're skirting their professional responsibility of training your properly.

The best training I got at XJT was CRM and fatigue management. If your airline isn't teaching this, get on them about it.
 
Believe it or not, I'll actually defend SWA when it comes to fatigue. They have the industry-leading fatigue policy by far. Call in fatigued, it's not only no-fault, but they actually pay you for the fatigue call.

Again, this is a contract issue, because it's QOL related. Nothing in the science indicates that an 8 day stretch of flying with a day off in between is fatiguing as long as you've had the sleep opportunities that 117 provides. And in reality, SWA's schedules usually provide far more than the required 117 sleep opportunities, with the average overnight being somewhere around 15-16 hours. You're not fatigued at the end of those 8 days, you're just ready to go home. And that's why SWAPA needs to stop stroking their W2 and realize that their contract absolutely sucks when it comes to work rules. Especially since their W2s aren't even as hot as they think they are anymore.
 
Not at straight pay, but the guys with some seniority horsepower aren't flying anything at straight pay, are they? No caps and lots of premium = $$

Back on topic though, I see your point ATN and I reluctantly agree.

Never let it be said that I can't be persuaded to change my opinion when I was proven to be wrong by a polite, well reasoned argument. Off to write a note to my Union rep... [emoji6]
 
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The real issue at hand is that the FAA has taken the teeth away from it's own "science based" reg by allowing companies, via a bogus interpretation, to discipline pilots for not accepting a 117 FDP extension.

Here's the real good stuff, which relates to refusing an extension for reasons other than fatigue, the rest is a good(scary) read as well. My company has already threatened discipline against pilots due to this....

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2014/Anderson-Teamsters357 -1- (2014) Legal Interpretation.pdf

In your last set of questions you ask whether a PIC can refuse an FDP extension for reasons other than being fatigued. If so, you then ask whether the certificate holder can take disciplinary action against the PIC for the refusal.

As an initial matter, § 117.5 prohibits a flightcrew member from working on an FDP when that flightcrew member is too fatigued to safely perform his or her work. Thus, if the PIC is too fatigued to safely work on an extended FDP, that PIC may not concur with an FDP extension without violating § 117.5.

However, the regulatory text of §§ 117.5 and 117.19 does not require the PIC to concur
in an FDP extension ifhe or she is not fatigued. Thus, the PIC would not violate part 117 ifhe or she refuses to concur with an FDP extension for reasons other than fatigue. We note, however, that, as discussed in the response to the previous question, part 117 also neither prohibits nor requires the certificate holder to take disciplinary action in response to the PIC's decision. As with several other issues in this interpretation, we expect this issue to be addressed as part of the certificate holder and PIC's employer-employee relationship. The management-labor issues as presented in your scenarios are beyond the scope of part 117.

/QUOTE]
 
The real issue at hand is that the FAA has taken the teeth away from it's own "science based" reg by allowing companies, via a bogus interpretation, to discipline pilots for not accepting a 117 FDP extension.

Here's the real good stuff, which relates to refusing an extension for reasons other than fatigue, the rest is a good(scary) read as well. My company has already threatened discipline against pilots due to this....

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2014/Anderson-Teamsters357 -1- (2014) Legal Interpretation.pdf
Well that's easy.
"I'm turning down this FDP extension"
"Why?"
"I'm fatigued."
 
Well that's easy.
"I'm turning down this FDP extension"
"Why?"
"I'm fatigued."

No, it's not easy.

A fatigue call at many carriers is the same as calling in sick, do it 6 or so times in a year and you get a letter in your file. Do it enough you get fired. You also do not get paid.

A pilot who thinks he has already called in sick too many times during the year may use that as the basis to accept a 117 extension even though he is fatigued. Doing so puts him at risk of certificate action, as well as raising safety concerns.

This is not consistent with a "scientific" system.
 
The real issue at hand is that the FAA has taken the teeth away from it's own "science based" reg by allowing companies, via a bogus interpretation, to discipline pilots for not accepting a 117 FDP extension.

Here's the real good stuff, which relates to refusing an extension for reasons other than fatigue, the rest is a good(scary) read as well. My company has already threatened discipline against pilots due to this....

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2014/Anderson-Teamsters357 -1- (2014) Legal Interpretation.pdf
Ahem:

"The FAA expects this issue to be addressed as part of the certificate holder and PIC's employer-employee relationship."

The attendance status of a pilot who calls in fatigued is a matter for labor-management relations unless and until it starts affecting safety. Can it affect safety? Sure it can, but when it does, you and your employer have BOTH opened large cans of worms. I think that's a good opinion there. It's between you and the Company until it becomes a matter for the Federales to worry about.

And, as various airlines have found out, taking retaliatory action against a pilot who calls in fatigued or otherwise unfit to fly is usually a very bad and tremendously expensive, and not a little embarrassing and protracted, idea to begin with.

Declaring yourself unfit to fly is a protected action.

No, it's not easy.

A fatigue call at many carriers is the same as calling in sick, do it 6 or so times in a year and you get a letter in your file. Do it enough you get fired. You also do not get paid.
Well, that sucks. It sounds like you need better management. Or better representation. Or both. Just culture* indeed.

The bottom line remains unchanged: If I don't think I can safely complete a flight operation I'm not going to attempt it, consequences, employment-related, be damned. I would rather be alive and unemployed than dead because I tried to complete "The Mission." (Which is itself funny: the mission here is don't hurt anyone first and foremost.)

* Why were you fatigued? Was it because you chose to commute on a redeye from Seattle to Newark the same day as your early morning show? Or was it because we built some really really aggressive and tiring pairings with multiple max duty days and minimum rest periods? Or because the fire alarm went off at 0200? This matters, too.
 
Where the 117 rules are obviously a complete and utter failure are circadian rhythm swaps, as has been mentioned above.

The phrase 'science supports the new rules' works for most of them but not this; anyone who has read a fair amount about the whole concept of the circadian rhythm and what is taking places in different phases of sleep can clearly see that the rules do absolutely zero to prevent issues in this area other than support a pilot to call in fatigued if they are tired (that part is good, of course). The science explanation is so ironic in this regard as the science could not be further from agreeing that the schedule below would be conducive to a rested, alert pilot.

Legal workday sequence:

Sleep from 23:00 to 07:00 at home.

Show up from days off for...
On duty 09:00 to 21:00.

Layover. Sleep from 23:00 to 07:00?
Awake from 07:00 to . . .

On duty 21:00 to 05:00. [note at this point the pilot would have gone on duty after being awake for 14 hours, two hours before than their usual bedtime, so they would not feel tired, but by the end of the duty period, they would have been awake for 23 hours]

Layover. Sleep from 06:00 to . . . 11:00ish if able? Not likely as their normal waking time was just 60 minutes after they laid down, and that's assuming they were able to fall asleep essentially the moment they walked into the hotel room (or possibly worse, home).

On duty 20:00 to 04:00.

Layover. Sleep from 05:00 to . . . 11:00ish again if able? Maybe more likely now as they are adjusting to a night owl schedule, albeit by missing two consecutive periods of deep sleep along the way, which is very problematic and science supports this notion.

On duty 03:00 to 11:00. Having awoken at 11:00, I think we could agree they'd likely be awake until at least 21:00 and more than likely 22:00-23:00 having done night work the previous two duty periods. Now they'd be setting an alarm clock for 01:30! That's 2-4 hours of useful rest.

I'll stop here after the fourth duty period as obviously this absurd sequence should not be allowed under 117, and even two more duty periods could be scheduled after these.

I am on days off typing from 8400 miles from home on a trip of nearly three weeks time off that I was able to create by cramming all of my flying into the other sides of the adjoining months. We've all done this type of thing. This is easier to do with 117 in my own experience. And I felt I bid responsibly and did not create anything that would needlessly tire me out. So, I like parts of these new rules for their 'side effects.'

But what's a pilot to do who's bidding 80% in base and gets stuck with whatever the system gives them?

Call in fatigued ten times per year?

Is that really a successful set of rest rules? Where someone could really, truly be in a position to have to do that?

I think the new 117 rules do a great job of looking at an individual workday as it's own entity and preventing a pilot from being on duty too long. The 16 hour workday is gone forever and that is great, and the 8.0 hour layover including transit is gone forever, and that is also great.

But as long as that individual work period is not fully tied into the days around it, then the success of the new stuff is only partial.

And partial success is a failure in this arena just as a baseball team who is in the lead for seven out of nine innings still loses the game.

It's the least common denominator that counts, and we've got crews doing sequences similar to the one I concocted above. The fatigue induced accident isn't going to happen to the crew that's doing some 9 to 5 daytrip. It only takes one crew out there doing something similar to above to have a problem and then we're back to square one. Unless it's a cargo crew, of course -- because they'd never mistakenly cross a runway in the dark, in fog, with rain covered cockpit windows, on their 15th hour on duty, and if they did, there's no way a passenger airplane loaded with insurance policies could be coming at them.
 
The real issue at hand is that the FAA has taken the teeth away from it's own "science based" reg by allowing companies, via a bogus interpretation, to discipline pilots for not accepting a 117 FDP extension.

Here's the real good stuff, which relates to refusing an extension for reasons other than fatigue, the rest is a good(scary) read as well. My company has already threatened discipline against pilots due to this....

Don't even get me started on this.

I have sat in meetings with the FAA along with representatives from many airlines discussing this and actually, I am just going to stop my post right here.
 
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Where the 117 rules are obviously a complete and utter failure are circadian rhythm swaps, as has been mentioned above.

The phrase 'science supports the new rules' works for most of them but not this; anyone who has read a fair amount about the whole concept of the circadian rhythm and what is taking places in different phases of sleep can clearly see that the rules do absolutely zero to prevent issues in this area other than support a pilot to call in fatigued if they are tired (that part is good, of course). The science explanation is so ironic in this regard as the science could not be further from agreeing that the schedule below would be conducive to a rested, alert pilot.

Legal workday sequence:

Sleep from 23:00 to 07:00 at home.

Show up from days off for...
On duty 09:00 to 21:00.

Layover. Sleep from 23:00 to 07:00?
Awake from 07:00 to . . .

On duty 21:00 to 05:00. [note at this point the pilot would have gone on duty after being awake for 14 hours, two hours before than their usual bedtime, so they would not feel tired, but by the end of the duty period, they would have been awake for 23 hours]

Layover. Sleep from 06:00 to . . . 11:00ish if able? Not likely as their normal waking time was just 60 minutes after they laid down, and that's assuming they were able to fall asleep essentially the moment they walked into the hotel room (or possibly worse, home).

On duty 20:00 to 04:00.

Layover. Sleep from 05:00 to . . . 11:00ish again if able? Maybe more likely now as they are adjusting to a night owl schedule, albeit by missing two consecutive periods of deep sleep along the way, which is very problematic and science supports this notion.

On duty 03:00 to 11:00. Having awoken at 11:00, I think we could agree they'd likely be awake until at least 21:00 and more than likely 22:00-23:00 having done night work the previous two duty periods. Now they'd be setting an alarm clock for 01:30! That's 2-4 hours of useful rest.

I'll stop here after the fourth duty period as obviously this absurd sequence should not be allowed under 117, and even two more duty periods could be scheduled after these.

I am on days off typing from 8400 miles from home on a trip of nearly three weeks time off that I was able to create by cramming all of my flying into the other sides of the adjoining months. We've all done this type of thing. This is easier to do with 117 in my own experience. And I felt I bid responsibly and did not create anything that would needlessly tire me out. So, I like parts of these new rules for their 'side effects.'

But what's a pilot to do who's bidding 80% in base and gets stuck with whatever the system gives them?

Call in fatigued ten times per year?

Is that really a successful set of rest rules? Where someone could really, truly be in a position to have to do that?

I think the new 117 rules do a great job of looking at an individual workday as it's own entity and preventing a pilot from being on duty too long. The 16 hour workday is gone forever and that is great, and the 8.0 hour layover including transit is gone forever, and that is also great.

But as long as that individual work period is not fully tied into the days around it, then the success of the new stuff is only partial.

And partial success is a failure in this arena just as a baseball team who is in the lead for seven out of nine innings still loses the game.

It's the least common denominator that counts, and we've got crews doing sequences similar to the one I concocted above. The fatigue induced accident isn't going to happen to the crew that's doing some 9 to 5 daytrip. It only takes one crew out there doing something similar to above to have a problem and then we're back to square one. Unless it's a cargo crew, of course -- because they'd never mistakenly cross a runway in the dark, in fog, with rain covered cockpit windows, on their 15th hour on duty, and if they did, there's no way a passenger airplane loaded with insurance policies could be coming at them.
This is basically my big problem with Part 117 as well: there is nothing helping with circadian purity. I can get up for days on end at 0430 (and basically did, for a year straight) as long as I've had the opportunity to get to bed early and have a reasonable amount of days off.

Consider, for instance, a trip that shows in the morning, early, on days 1-3 and then you fly one leg home (or whatever) on Day Four...at 10PM. 10PM is "past bedtime" if you've been doing the early morning thing, and I don't know about you, but sleeping during the day in a hotel can be a tenuous proposition. This crew is set up to operate at a lower level of human performance, as you have described, BUT it's perfectly legal. (This was legal under the old regime too, but I guess I just want people to admit that everything isn't awesome and we solved the fatigue problem.) Our redeye pairings are somewhat similar (although we've gone back to having a recovery day now, instead of operate in-day sleep-operate out all within one 24 hour period, so I'll call that a win too). Split duty? What a great effin' joke that is, especially if you sprinkle SDP pairings in with "regular" flying - which is what happens when you bid 80%. (I seriously cannot believe SDP is still legal!)

While I'm much in favor of the new rules, I also have flown some terribly tiring and perfectly legal schedules under them as well. There are opportunities to be murderously efficient (no 30-in-7, as @Screaming_Emu points out), but there are some really lousy parts of this rule too.
 
No, it's not easy.

A fatigue call at many carriers is the same as calling in sick, do it 6 or so times in a year and you get a letter in your file. Do it enough you get fired.

No you don't. Sure, they may tell you that that's their policy, but you won't be fired. Tons of airlines have these policies. And they all also have a huge list of pilots who have exceeded the limits without discipline. Don't be a coward. If you're fatigued, you're fatigued. The law protects you, regardless of what some silly policy says. That policy is there to scare you, not to actually be enforced.

You also do not get paid.

That's a contract issue. It has nothing to do with the FAA. If you're waiting for the government to tell your employer when to pay you, then I suggest you not hold your breath.

This is not consistent with a "scientific" system.

The system is scientific. It can't account for people who refuse to call in fatigued when they are fatigued. All it can do is protect you when you do have a pair.
 
No you don't. Sure, they may tell you that that's their policy, but you won't be fired. Tons of airlines have these policies. And they all also have a huge list of pilots who have exceeded the limits without discipline. Don't be a coward. If you're fatigued, you're fatigued. The law protects you, regardless of what some silly policy says. That policy is there to scare you, not to actually be enforced.



That's a contract issue. It has nothing to do with the FAA. If you're waiting for the government to tell your employer when to pay you, then I suggest you not hold your breath.



The system is scientific. It can't account for people who refuse to call in fatigued when they are fatigued. All it can do is protect you when you do have a pair.
The bottom line remains unchanged from pre-Part 117.

(Imagine me saying this in my "I'm animated, I've had a few drinks and we're talking about flying now!" tones from NJC):

"Regardless of whether or not a schedule is 'legal' you are ultimately responsible for determining your fitness for duty, and you are responsible for removing yourself from duty when the situation demands it."
 
No you don't. Sure, they may tell you that that's their policy, but you won't be fired. Tons of airlines have these policies. And they all also have a huge list of pilots who have exceeded the limits without discipline. Don't be a coward. If you're fatigued, you're fatigued. The law protects you, regardless of what some silly policy says. That policy is there to scare you, not to actually be enforced.



That's a contract issue. It has nothing to do with the FAA. If you're waiting for the government to tell your employer when to pay you, then I suggest you not hold your breath.



The system is scientific. It can't account for people who refuse to call in fatigued when they are fatigued. All it can do is protect you when you do have a pair.

You and @Autothrust Blue are missing my point. "It's over my max FDP" should be a perfectly acceptable reason to not accept the extension. You guys can't tell me that if something happened "exceeded max FDP" wouldn't be a contributing factor.

I'm not advocating not calling fatigued.

Thanks for letting me know that "I need better management" though.....:rolleyes:
 
You and @Autothrust Blue are missing my point. "It's over my max FDP" should be a perfectly acceptable reason to not accept the extension. You guys can't tell me that if something happened "exceeded max FDP" wouldn't be a contributing factor.
Odds are if I get to that point I'm going to be fatigued...you know...there is some science there.

I've not once been asked to overfly an FDP limitation. I'm sure that day will come and when that happens I'll make an honest assessment of it.

Thanks for letting me know that "I need better management" though.....:rolleyes:
You're welcome, anytime.
 
You and @Autothrust Blue are missing my point. "It's over my max FDP" should be a perfectly acceptable reason to not accept the extension.

Except that it's not over the max FDP. The max FDP that you're talking about is the planned FDP, but the science recognizes that people are frequently able to exceed those limits without issue, and the rule therefore allows you to do it if you aren't fatigued. If you aren't fatigued, why do you think you should be able to deny the assignment anyway? Because if it's not a safety issue, then it's a contract issue. Address it through the right venue, which isn't a regulation.
 
Except that it's not over the max FDP. The max FDP that you're talking about is the planned FDP, but the science recognizes that people are frequently able to exceed those limits without issue, and the rule therefore allows you to do it if you aren't fatigued. If you aren't fatigued, why do you think you should be able to deny the assignment anyway? Because if it's not a safety issue, then it's a contract issue. Address it through the right venue, which isn't a regulation.
I hate agreeing with you. It makes me feel so very sick. (BAD TOUCH!)

But you're right.
 
I do kind of hate the "automatic extension". If you can extend me automatically and without my concurrence, then why is that limit even published? Why not just publish the higher limit and call it good.

Seems like the last few times I've come up against a LWU (latest wheels up) time and called scheduling the answer is, "Nope, you're good!"

I'm good?! Then why the heck do you print these LWU times and give them to me before departure?!
 
I do kind of hate the "automatic extension". If you can extend me automatically and without my concurrence, then why is that limit even published? Why not just publish the higher limit and call it good.

Seems like the last few times I've come up against a LWU (latest wheels up) time and called scheduling the answer is, "Nope, you're good!"

I'm good?! Then why the heck do you print these LWU times and give them to me before departure?!
I will agree that they should not be "freebies" as they seem to be now; I will further agree that I do think that the Feds have fumbled on this by punting it to a labor-management relations situation, but I think that this situation will be resolved. (Yes, it's a matter for the employment relationship, but that relationship WILL eventually affect safety.) The questions lie in "how soon" and "how" it's done.
 
What about this individual pilot's bidding strategy? Was he aware that he may be bidding into such a scenario?

Additionally, who builds the pairings that the SWA pilots fly? Certainly SWAPA has a scheduling committee and I hope it has a few pairing construction SME to help mitigate potential fatiguing pairings with appropriate build constraints.
 
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