SmoothLanderJ
Well-Known Member
Seggy said:
Same here!....I try hard to avoid them though.
New FAR 117 rest rules should be revised.
- Thread starter ZapBrannigan
- Start date
Same here!....I try hard to avoid them though.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Every leg on your line is a red eye? That is crazy.
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L-16B
Well-Known Member
Yup. All month long. But APA told me not to worry as only a small percentage of pairings are "slash" trips. We call then redeyes.
Thanks obama
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
scooter2525
Very well Member
Red eye at the start of a trip with the whole day in and off is fine. Especially with a later show the next day.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
The issue with red eyes here is not only their construction and how they build them but also paired with the fact that they are typically backed up to something else OR given to reserves who can't adequately prepare for them.
For example, typical red eye out of PHL is 1940 show (EST) 2040 dept to some west coast destination (5-6 hour block). Get in around 0100 local. Some times the trip before it (day trip) will be a 0700 show fly all day get in around say 1600. Or alternatively assigned to reserves around 1300 EST the day prior.
Layover for 24-ish hours show at 0100 EST fly SLC/LAS/SFO/SAN/LAX/SEA-PHL fly till 0600 EST (local). Completely opposite your circadian rhythm.
The issue I have with the first leg is it's opposite what you are doing before it (getting up early and going to bed early) leaving you no time to prepare your body.
The issue I have with the second leg is when you get in you are dog tired, and you have a choice. Go to sleep for a few hours, wake up early say 0400 AM local and mill about then go to sleep again trying to get 6-8 hours of sleep completely opposite your normal sleep pattern. This is what I try and do however there are issues with housekeeping cleaning during your nap, or people making noise, or noise outside the hotel, etc. because it's during the normal day.
Or sleep a full 8 hours waking up at say 1000 EST then trying to stay awake till 0600 the next day (20 hours up). Good luck going to sleep before your 0100 show after 8+ hours of sleep combined with the above issues!
For example, typical red eye out of PHL is 1940 show (EST) 2040 dept to some west coast destination (5-6 hour block). Get in around 0100 local. Some times the trip before it (day trip) will be a 0700 show fly all day get in around say 1600. Or alternatively assigned to reserves around 1300 EST the day prior.
Layover for 24-ish hours show at 0100 EST fly SLC/LAS/SFO/SAN/LAX/SEA-PHL fly till 0600 EST (local). Completely opposite your circadian rhythm.
The issue I have with the first leg is it's opposite what you are doing before it (getting up early and going to bed early) leaving you no time to prepare your body.
The issue I have with the second leg is when you get in you are dog tired, and you have a choice. Go to sleep for a few hours, wake up early say 0400 AM local and mill about then go to sleep again trying to get 6-8 hours of sleep completely opposite your normal sleep pattern. This is what I try and do however there are issues with housekeeping cleaning during your nap, or people making noise, or noise outside the hotel, etc. because it's during the normal day.
Or sleep a full 8 hours waking up at say 1000 EST then trying to stay awake till 0600 the next day (20 hours up). Good luck going to sleep before your 0100 show after 8+ hours of sleep combined with the above issues!
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I'm also on the "there's a way" bandwagon. Most of ours are fly out, 24-30+ hour overnights and red eye back. Commuters love 'em because they get back in at around 6-7 am and they can sleep on the commute home. Then they're in their house before noon on a day that's NOT a day off.
The trick is managing your time before hand. If someone gets assigned a trip at 1300 that ends at 0100, that's not that big a deal. Don't get up at 7 am, go running and not take a nap. I can see the open time and the reserve grid. I know that if I start reserve anytime after 1800, I'm on the hook for a red eye. It's up to ME to make sure I'm rested in case I get a call. Going out to play a soccer game from 2-5 and HOPING they don't call is just irresponsible of me. Hell, the other night all the scheduled red eyes were gone and I STILL got a call to do a delayed MC)-JFK leg because the other crew timed out. They did a tech stop on RSW-JFK in MCO because the scheduled crew was legal for RSW-MCO but not RSW-JFK. So they stopped in MCO, and a reserve crew finished it out. Every reserve should know when they start their RAP, and if they aren't fresh and ready to go by then (and potentially fly a flight they are legal for), they need to call in before then.
Also, the FAA tracks extensions and refusals of FDPs. I know we got a "Hey, what's going on over there?" not too long ago from the FAA because we had an unusual amount of FDP extensions dues to IROPs. So, the FAA DOES hold (at least theoretically) airlines accountable for getting close on the FDPs if they do it too often. My? I've never been asked to extend my FDP since 117 came around. I've been in the situation where I was on duty LONGER than the max FDP because the last leg was a DH, but I've never been put in the spot of potentially refusing an extension. We've got plenty of guys here that are in the "I'm never agreeing to an extension......EVER!" crowd. They tend to be pretty much douchebags, though, to just cover every situation with that blanket.
The trick is managing your time before hand. If someone gets assigned a trip at 1300 that ends at 0100, that's not that big a deal. Don't get up at 7 am, go running and not take a nap. I can see the open time and the reserve grid. I know that if I start reserve anytime after 1800, I'm on the hook for a red eye. It's up to ME to make sure I'm rested in case I get a call. Going out to play a soccer game from 2-5 and HOPING they don't call is just irresponsible of me. Hell, the other night all the scheduled red eyes were gone and I STILL got a call to do a delayed MC)-JFK leg because the other crew timed out. They did a tech stop on RSW-JFK in MCO because the scheduled crew was legal for RSW-MCO but not RSW-JFK. So they stopped in MCO, and a reserve crew finished it out. Every reserve should know when they start their RAP, and if they aren't fresh and ready to go by then (and potentially fly a flight they are legal for), they need to call in before then.
Also, the FAA tracks extensions and refusals of FDPs. I know we got a "Hey, what's going on over there?" not too long ago from the FAA because we had an unusual amount of FDP extensions dues to IROPs. So, the FAA DOES hold (at least theoretically) airlines accountable for getting close on the FDPs if they do it too often. My? I've never been asked to extend my FDP since 117 came around. I've been in the situation where I was on duty LONGER than the max FDP because the last leg was a DH, but I've never been put in the spot of potentially refusing an extension. We've got plenty of guys here that are in the "I'm never agreeing to an extension......EVER!" crowd. They tend to be pretty much douchebags, though, to just cover every situation with that blanket.