New FAR 117 rest rules should be revised.

[ZapBrannigan]

A colleague recently showed me a month-to-month transition schedule that included a high time four day trip, one day off, followed by another high time four day trip. 8 of 9 working days that were clearly going to be fatiguing. It's allowed by both FAR and the contract which means that deciding whether he is fatigued is solely up to the pilot with no safety policy or procedure in place to keep it from getting that far.

What's sad is that it is widely accepted that human beings are poor judges of our own fatigue. It is insidious.

By the time we realize we are fatigued (micro sleeps etc) our cognitive abilities are already compromised. Rather than putting safeguards in place to mitigate fatigue, the airlines rely on a flawed system. They ask mission oriented individuals to throw the flag and call fatigued.

Physiology and mission mentality - That's a lot working against safety in my view.

 

[jtrain609]

Is your airline not providing training on recognizing the objective symptoms of fatigue?

 

[Flyboy57]

How did he not run into the 60-in-7 Day FDP limits?

 

[B767]

How did he not run into the 60-in-7 Day FDP limits?

Pretty easy not to. I've done numerous 6 day stretches flying 30+ (the most I did in a 6 day stretch was 34) and still have time to spare on my FDP. Hell, I just finished a 6 day stretch last night...still had 15:40 to spare on my 60 in 7 (yes, one of the 3 day trips was, and paid, absolute crap).

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

A colleague recently showed me a month-to-month transition schedule that included a high time four day trip, one day off, followed by another high time four day trip. 8 of 9 working days that were clearly going to be fatiguing. It's allowed by both FAR and the contract which means that deciding whether he is fatigued is solely up to the pilot with no safety policy or procedure in place to keep it from getting that far.

What's sad is that it is widely accepted that human beings are poor judges of our own fatigue. It is insidious.

By the time we realize we are fatigued (micro sleeps etc) our cognitive abilities are already compromised. Rather than putting safeguards in place to mitigate fatigue, the airlines rely on a flawed system. They ask mission oriented individuals to throw the flag and call fatigued.

Physiology and mission mentality - That's a lot working against safety in my view.

Obviously, I blame SWAPA.

 

[DE727UPS]

"deciding whether he is fatigued is solely up to the pilot with no safety policy or procedure in place to keep it from getting that far."

"Rather than putting safeguards in place to mitigate fatigue, the airlines rely on a flawed system."

What more do you want? I fly night freight and that's how it is. And we have the strongest unions in the biz. Thanks FAA. Perhaps your union could join the lawsuit?

 

[DE727UPS]

People. If you're fatigued shut it down. End of story. That's what they want from us.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

The point is that we are lousy judges of our own fatigue until it is too late. Fatigue calls should be reserved for when you can't sleep at the hotel because the smoke alarm keeps going off -- not for normal trips scheduled thoughtlessly in compliance with the flawed FAR 117.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

FAR 117 is based on the science (with the exception of the cargo carve-out). Sometimes science doesn't say what we wish it said.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I get that. But science or no, you can't tell me that you wouldn't be tired on day 8 of 9 with only a day off somewhere in the middle during which you weren't even able to get home.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

"Tired" and "fatigued" aren't really the same thing. Frankly, I was "tired" after a 4 day trip. But I wasn't fatigued. Being away from home for 8 days sucks. But it isn't inherently dangerous if you have ample rest opportunities during the trip. Plenty of supplemental pilots are flying 30 day trips, and they aren't unsafe.

What you're describing is a contract issue. It never would have been allowed under the AirTran CBA. But SWAPA didn't think we had anything to offer, so I hope they enjoy staring at their W2s while they spend 8 days away from home.

 

[DE727UPS]

The system isn't set up to preconceive anything. They don't want that or it would have been addressed. The onus is now on the crewmember to make the call, each leg, dot period.

I'm on your side Zap. I don't get it either. Explain the cargo cutout to me and tell me it makes any sense. The politicians and big bidness run the show. We are just widgets that make the planes move.

 

[wheelsup]

I thought I was fatigued at the commuters until I came here. Red-eyes are by far the most fatiguing flying I have ever done. I have never seen so many guys study the overhead panel so intently in my 8 years at my commuter as I've seen in a year here.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

My airline still has the 30 in 7 metric on our calendar. I regularly violate the crap out of 30 in 7 but have found myself, for the most part, to be much less fatigued than under the old rules.

They're not perfect, but they are a vast improvement. If you're fatigued, you're fatigued.

 

[Seggy]

No, the Part 117 rules should not be revised.

Yes, they should be tweaked and the 'cargo carve out' corrected (BTW, @DE727UPS that lawsuit is flawed and isn't the way to go), but overall, they are a huge improvement in what we had.

A few things in your post @ZapBrannigan that really point the finger elsewhere besides FAR117.

First, to work 8 out of 9 days, as stated, isn't fatiguing. Could it be tiring? I guess. I had to work the first 12 out of 14 days in March and was a little tired at the end of all of that, but not once was I fatigued. Regardless of that, if you had standard contractual provisions that stated something like 'you need two full calender days free from duty between work blocks', the issue of working 8 of 9 days in a row is solved.

Secondly, in respect to this statement...

Rather than putting safeguards in place to mitigate fatigue, the airlines rely on a flawed system. They ask mission oriented individuals to throw the flag and call fatigued.

...you are being quite dramatic here. It isn't a flawed system at a place like yours. There are plenty of safeguards in place from the ASAP Program, a FRMS System, and a good culture where you won't get your job threatened or fired for calling in fatigued. For crying out loud the only thing Toddorino didn't bitch and moan about the LUV Machine coming in and taking over the Critters was how fatigue calls paid out and the fatigue policy in general. He actually gave them credit for how they changed the policy!

You miss the mark when you use the excuse that it is 'hard' for 'mission oriented individuals' to flow the flag and call fatigued. It should say,we as professionals have a duty and responsibility to our passengers, fellow crew members, and ourselves to examine if we are fit for duty before every leg at the appropriate time and if we aren't, call in sick if you are sick, or fatigued if you are fatigued. Guess, what....those decisions are what we get paid to make. By your line of thinking 'mission orientated individuals' would have a tough time of diverting when they need to divert. Going around when they need to go around. Deviating when they need to deviate. Or just setting the parking brake when it needs to be set and the flow stopped for whatever reason. Calling in fatigued or sick need to be looked at the same way. There is a reporting system if you are fatigued to hopefully prevent it from happening again. Did you tell your friend to see how they feel after they fly the trip? If he feels fatigued during the trip, call in fatigued and file the appropriate reports. If he doesn't, but then is wiped after the trip, well, file the appropriate report stating that. Then that data will be looked at, give your union more ammunition to actually go to the company in negotiations or have it changed.

Thirdly, the science is the science. FAR 117 isn't the problem.

 

[Seggy]

Obviously, I blame SWAPA.

Shocked he didn't blame ALPA.

 

[adk]

The point is that we are lousy judges of our own fatigue until it is too late. Fatigue calls should be reserved for when you can't sleep at the hotel because the smoke alarm keeps going off -- not for normal trips scheduled thoughtlessly in compliance with the flawed FAR 117.

Disagree 100%. Fatigue calls are for whenever you're not fit for duty due to fatigue. If you call out fatigued on leg one, day one because you have a sick kid at home who has kept you up for the past three nights, that is an absolutely bonafide reason to call fatigued. Down in the regional slums, pilots (especially reserves) call out fatigued all the time due to poor scheduling practices.

 

[kellwolf]

Is your airline not providing training on recognizing the objective symptoms of fatigue?

Problem there is by the time you recognize it, you probably should have already made the call. It's kinda like drinking. You don't realize you're drunk until you try to stand up.....

 

[kellwolf]

I thought I was fatigued at the commuters until I came here. Red-eyes are by far the most fatiguing flying I have ever done. I have never seen so many guys study the overhead panel so intently in my 8 years at my commuter as I've seen in a year here.

If done correctly, I haven't found red eyes to be too bad. This is coming from someone that's only flown an airplane twice with the sun up in the past month, too.

Basically, I just do the short red eye turns, though. MCO-BQN or MCO-PSE isn't too terrible. Little under 6 hours of block. 10:45 pm show and you're back in base by 7 am. Now, two of those in a row, and I'm done. Three? Not happening. Luckily, we've got decent protection for that when it comes to reserves. You get tagged with a red eye, the earliest they can get you for anything is about 24-25 hours after you get back in. Hard lines? I've seen guys with three in a row. I just go ahead and bank on that third one going to a reserve.

Now JFK and BOS have some brutal red eyes. Some turns down to the islands that are around 8 hours of block and skirt the limits of FDPs. A lot of guys do those because they're high credit and they get more days off in the month. I haven't done one yet, but we do have a few red eyes followed by a day sleep with another red eye back to base. Not as many of those as there used to be. They seem to be going more towards the red eye out, 30+ hour overnight, then fly back.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Problem there is by the time you recognize it, you probably should have already made the call. It's kinda like drinking. You don't realize you're drunk until you try to stand up.....

This is my point. My problem with what Seggy said is that it ignores the reality that we all push ourselves. We don't want to strand a plane load of customers in Podunk, we don't want to inconvenience our fellow crewmembers, we want to get the job done. It isn't the same as diverting or go around... Not because those decisions are always black and white, but because becoming fatigued almost never is. On the ground you are running around, getting your pre-departure stuff done. Adrenalin is pumping. I don't know about you but I don't start feeling sleepy until out of around 10,000 when the pace begins to slow down. By then it's too late.

I'm not disagreeing with the science. I'm not smart enough to do so. Rather I feel that rather than put all of the onus on the crews to throw the flag, there should be other safeguards in place to prevent a crewmember from having to diagnose his/her own level of fatigue in the face of everyday pressures to stay on time and get the job done.

Seggy may be correct in that those protections should be contractual - but contracts must be negotiated and negotiating capital spent to purchase such provisions. That may be possible at major airlines (though some are more W2 focused than others... Right Todd?) but I wonder if it is possible at some of the lower tier of carriers?

My thought is that - and I freely admit that I am posting based on gut feel rather than any science - is that 117 should have a kill switch that prevents a month to month transition, or even a pilots own ability to trade/drop/add to create a schedule that is likely to produce fatigue.

Why? Because Kellwolf is correct. It is difficult to diagnose ones self during the early stages of fatigue AND nomatter how good our contractual protections, we all want to get the job done for our company and our crewmembers. I know. You're going to say we get paid to make those tough decisions. I agree. In this case however I feel we have one piece of the overused metaphorical Swiss cheese with one big hole in the middle and no other policy, procedure, checklist, flow, etc that can mitigate the risk.

Just my opinion. Seggy and others can tell me I am 100% wrong and maybe they are right. But one thing is certain, I'm not alone in feeling this way about this topic.

(Caveat, I have never flown a redeye. Can not even begin to imagine what it is like but I'm sure the level of suck is stratospheric especially for guys like me who are typically in bed by 10pm and awake by 7am)