New Eagle TA

JohnGardner said:
I don't know what was posted here. We never said we were walking away.
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You never said you were going to reengage either. The letter implied that management made their bed and they will lay in it. This letter that I saw as well as hoards of others was posted just several hours after the meeting where the vote was decided by a 5-4 margin. Maybe that will jog your memory?
 
Seggy said:
I would like to know, especially considering you put a comm out through the ALPA servers saying y'all were done negotiating with the company after the MEC voted down the TA, only to be putting one out to vote a few short weeks after your comm saying you were done entertaining offers from the company...
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This is what seggy said. We never said we were walking away. The company told us many times they were walking away, company shutting down, various threats. When the MEC decided, the ball is back in the company's court. We asked them to keep us informed of their stated plans. Everything that happened next has been communicated.
 
JohnGardner said:
I've never understood the value of family awareness events as they are put on, and rank and file pilots in General will largely tell you the same thing. You say "reach" but what does that mean? Are you suggesting that the 50 families that show are families and pilots who could not be communicated with some other way? If you could support that, I would be right behind you with the events. But I find it hard to believe.
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I can't remember who EGL's Communication Specialist is, but you should know. Give him/her a call and ask for a copy of the article about what the UAL MEC learned from the 1985 strike about the importance of family awareness. It's a well known article (I wish I could remember the title), so your CommSpec should probably know about it off the top of his/her head. Family awareness is of the utmost importance. A pilot group's unity breaks down when the spouses no longer support what is happening, and that usually happens because the union hasn't been educating them.
 
JohnGardner said:
This is what seggy said. We never said we were walking away. The company told us many times they were walking away, company shutting down, various threats. When the MEC decided, the ball is back in the company's court. We asked them to keep us informed of their stated plans. Everything that happened next has been communicated.
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Just some constructive criticism, from one former Comm guy to another: sending out a communication to the pilot group that says the airline is going to liquidate is probably not your best way to rally the troops. It's a great way to freak out one portion of them, and piss off the other portion so much that they don't think rationally.
 
JohnGardner said:
http://forums.jetcareers.com/attachments/budget-report-3-1-pdf.23503/
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Aside from a few friends left at Eagle, I really don't have any stake in this disagreement....but the vitriol being thrown about is sort of intriguing.

If expensing alcohol is legitimately against Eagle MEC policy--and Eagle ALPA funds were actually used for the alcohol purchases--than it certainly seems like a misuse ALPA money.

But the level of effort the author of the above document put into it makes me think it's just a bit personal for him rather than simply "they're misusing funds".
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I can't remember who EGL's Communication Specialist is, but you should know. Give him/her a call and ask for a copy of the article about what the UAL MEC learned from the 1985 strike about the importance of family awareness. It's a well known article (I wish I could remember the title), so your CommSpec should probably know about it off the top of his/her head. Family awareness is of the utmost importance. A pilot group's unity breaks down when the spouses no longer support what is happening, and that usually happens because the union hasn't been educating them.
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I agree spouses are important. Mine has a Facebook account and is on two different eagle discussion pages and the lounge. My 13 year old daughter a few days ago over breakfast casually asked me if (SPC guy) had the base visit schedule done yet.

In 1985 we had only had inexpensive hand calculators for 5 years. No cell phones, no email, no internet, no webinars, no conference calls with 500 pilots on it, etc etc. When we visit a base, the details are reported on a bunch of websites and viewed/analyzed/discussed/argued about ad infinitum. I agree in 1985 they were probably invaluable. I went to a family awareness event at six flags that was grotesquely expensive. People stayed for the brisket, it was good. I was one of very few people who heard Tony's entire speech because my kids wanted their face painted. The place just emptied when he spoke. No one I spoke with said they benefitted more than a good meal and a day at the park (which, thanks by the way - me and my girls had a blast).

I know everyone isn't as well-informed as I made sure to be, but for that kind of money to "reach" who? Now with twitter and texting (I text the pilots free instead of using the $500/month texting service that was suggested) it is instantaneous. Our group is well informed - there's always some you don't reach, but with technology today even proposal language is widely and rapidly disseminated.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Just some constructive criticism, from one former Comm guy to another: sending out a communication to the pilot group that says the airline is going to liquidate is probably not your best way to rally the troops. It's a great way to freak out one portion of them, and piss off the other portion so much that they don't think rationally.
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But I didn't do that. The company did over and over and over and over. The first meeting, "you will be Comair II. Do you want to be Comair II?" That pilot group was in that condition already, thanks 100% to the company. That com went out and the company had no plan B. None. Two days later in their first com after ours, they came out and said they had no liquidation schedule because they weren't shutting us down. Now they learned and are making their threats still, but now more ambiguously. I'm not going to talk about forward looking strategy, but it would be inappropriate to not tell the pilots where they stand. Should we have withheld the shutdown threat? How could they have made the right decision,how could they now if we are passive?
 
JohnGardner said:
I agree spouses are important. Mine has a Facebook account and is on two different eagle discussion pages and the lounge. My 13 year old daughter a few days ago over breakfast casually asked me if (SPC guy) had the base visit schedule done yet.

In 1985 we had only had inexpensive hand calculators for 5 years. No cell phones, no email, no internet, no webinars, no conference calls with 500 pilots on it, etc etc. When we visit a base, the details are reported on a bunch of websites and viewed/analyzed/discussed/argued about ad infinitum. I agree in 1985 they were probably invaluable. I went to a family awareness event at six flags that was grotesquely expensive. People stayed for the brisket, it was good. I was one of very few people who heard Tony's entire speech because my kids wanted their face painted. The place just emptied when he spoke. No one I spoke with said they benefitted more than a good meal and a day at the park (which, thanks by the way - me and my girls had a blast).

I know everyone isn't as well-informed as I made sure to be, but for that kind of money to "reach" who? Now with twitter and texting (I text the pilots free instead of using the $500/month texting service that was suggested) it is instantaneous. Our group is well informed - there's always some you don't reach, but with technology today even proposal language is widely and rapidly disseminated.
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You're kidding yourself if you believe everyone utilizes the technology that you do. It kind of scares me that someone with your attitude about outreach is a communications chairman.
 
zmiller4 said:
Aside from a few friends left at Eagle, I really don't have any stake in this disagreement....but the vitriol being thrown about is sort of intriguing.

If expensing alcohol is legitimately against Eagle MEC policy--and Eagle ALPA funds were actually used for the alcohol purchases--than it certainly seems like a misuse ALPA money.

But the level of effort the author of the above document put into it makes me think it's just a bit personal for him rather than simply "they're misusing funds".
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Yeah it would be safe to say, but there is bad blood there. Ironically, it has to do with NDA information. Posting NDA on a website would be bad too. Don't you agree Jared? Kinda topical since someone asked about the "organized effort" earlier. For the record I don't care that Dwyer posted those slides on a Facebook, I think they are meaningless and it seems everyone agrees. I would caution tho, tell the boys to be more careful about NDA stuff posted on the web.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You're kidding yourself if you believe everyone utilizes the technology that you do. It kind of scares me that someone with your attitude about outreach is a communications chairman.
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What is your ax? I said I don't think everyone. Do you think you "reach" as many people with a picnic as I do with email, text, social media and then all those people discussing the details. Perhaps ask DB or KS or any of the other com people we work with what gets the info out quicker and better. Or perhaps we follow the advice of our SPC contact. Clearly you have an issue here. I doubt I "scare" you. And I'm the drama queen. For every time I've seen or heard a person bust on that no vote com, I've had at least 20 tell me to my face it was pure genius. From the questions and feedback alone from crew room visits, it is obvious the group is well-informed.
 
JohnGardner said:
Should we have withheld the shutdown threat? How could they have made the right decision,how could they now if we are passive?
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Well, the pilots had no decision to make, actually. The MEC made that decision for them. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, but your premise is flawed.

The communication was a poke in the company's eye. It was a call to their bluff. It was basically a "we ain't scared of you, bring it on" communication. The problem with that, of course, is that you were using your communication to speak to the company instead of using it to speak to your pilots. There's nothing wrong with understanding that a comm has multiple audiences and playing to that, but you basically ignored that your main audience was your own membership.

What should a comm say after something like that? Well, I would have probably written something like the following:

"After reviewing the company's offer, the MEC determined that it was not acceptable for our pilot group. The MEC will continue to make every effort to engage the company to find solutions that are mutually acceptable and will allow our company to grow."

Obviously it needs a lot more fluff, but that would be the general message. Engagement always needs to be the message, not "well, that's it, we're all finished and the company is dead." Honestly, it was the craziest message I've ever seen an MEC put out. And since you're here now, could you possibly explain why it came out with your signature on it instead of the MEC's? @Seggy and I found that incredibly odd when we read it, being former MEC officers who used to sign our communications and take ownership of them.
 
JohnGardner said:
What is your ax? I said I don't think everyone. Do you think you "reach" as many people with a picnic as I do with email, text, social media and then all those people discussing the details. Perhaps ask DB or KS or any of the other com people we work with what gets the info out quicker and better. Or perhaps we follow the advice of our SPC contact. Clearly you have an issue here. I doubt I "scare" you. And I'm the drama queen. For every time I've seen or heard a person bust on that no vote com, I've had at least 20 tell me to my face it was pure genius. From the questions and feedback alone from crew room visits, it is obvious the group is well-informed.
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I've worked with KS and DB for years, so I know that neither of them eschews family awareness events. Far from it. Each communication tool has its purpose. Twitter, Facebook, email, etc. are all great tools for quick messages. But they don't reassure the average spouse that fighting the good fight is worthwhile and isn't going to destroy their family. That usually needs a more personal touch, and that's what a family awareness event is good for. Just the gathering of the spouses in one spot to talk to each other makes a big difference. The spouses that are going through it for the first time are able to talk face to face with spouses that have been through the contract fights many times before. It builds a bond, and it reassures people who are scared. That doesn't happen over Twitter or the crack pipe message boards, my friend.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Honestly, it was the craziest message I've ever seen an MEC put out.
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Yep, craziest I've seen as well.

And since you're here now, could you possibly explain why it came out with your signature on it instead of the MEC's?
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Excellent point.

@Seggy and I found that incredibly odd when we read it, being former MEC officers who used to sign our communications and take ownership of them.
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Yep.
 
Gonzo said:
20 guys that have no clue how union/company talks really happen vs @ATN_Pilot, @Seggy and @surreal1221.
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I think this is a valid point, and not just because it strokes my massive ego. :D

No, the real reason is that it points out the flaw in the reasoning of reps and committee members who are focused on appealing to what we referred to at AirTran as the "12 Angry Men" (the union message board crowd). When your focus is on making the angriest people cheer you on, you're not making the best decisions, because those guys don't have the slightest clue how things really work in labor/management relations. Sure, you made some guy happy and he came up to you in the crew lounge and said "yeah, John, you really showed those management dooshes with that communication!" But what did it do for your overall goals? Did it move you along towards improving the lives of your members? Or did it just feel good for the angry guys?

The last ALPA president, Captain Prater, was really big on every MEC having a strategic plan. The new ALPA president has carried on that tradition, but he's added something to it: "before you make every decision, ask yourself, is this going to help us or hurt us in reaching the goals on our strategic plan? Everything matters." Now, everyone knows that the grand poobah and I are not usually on the same page, but this is where he's got it right. Every decision you make has consequences. Every communication you send out will have one effect or another. Before you do those things, you need to stop and ask what that effect is going to be on your ultimate goals. Forget how it makes you "feel." Emotions are meaningless. Do what will advance your goals. And if someone suggests something that could knock you off track to reaching those goals, put a stop to it quickly.
 
Where I work I've never heard of an open bar as necessary to bring in an audience. We aren't an ALPA union. Free Pizza seems to do the trick here. That's the norm. I hate to be a retard but I think the association of alcohol as a way to attract pilots to a union function is quite a risky policy. You guys have fun with that....
 
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