New CFI Temp, what is my expiration

[PanJet]

Okay, butt, I'm not going to go through the whole "student instruction" argument again. I'm not that motivated to try and convince you. I'm just going to point out three specific things that have been brought up that I'd like to point your attention to.

#1. Part 119 is about operators certification, not pilot certification. You said that without it flight schools would have to apply for 121/135 certificates, whatever. You are correct, but that has nothing to do with the pilots, just the flight school. Pilot certification is Part 61. I'll give you an analogy. Let's say you have a beautician's license. We'll compare that to your pilot's license. Just because you have a beautician's license doesn't mean you can open your own business. You must have a license or charter or whatever (depending on the state) to run your business as a beautician. This is the same as pilot's license vs. operators certificates. Part 61 is pilot's certification (beautician's license), while Part 119 is operator's certification (license to own business).

#2. A commercial license is required for CFI privileges. All of the "student instruction" argument aside, in order to be able to excercise your CFI certificate, you must have a valid commercial license. It cannot be revoked or downgraded, and if it is you loose your ability to excercise your CFI privileges. The eligibility requirements found in 61.183 don't just go away after you get a CFI. Why would they require you to have a commercial license to get a CFI, but once you have one not care anymore? A commercial license is required. End of story.

#3. Your medical status does not change your pilot certificate at all. The only thing your medical does is allow you to excercise certain privileges of your pilot certificate. If you posses an ATP, you must have a first class medical to excercise the privileges of the ATP. If you have a commercial license you must have a second class certificate to excercise the privileges of a commercial pilot. If you lose your first class medical, that does not change the fact that you have an ATP certificate, or if you lose your second class medical, that does not change the fact that you have a commercial certificate. The ATP or commercial you posses is just as valid as the day the DPE signed your temp, but you may not excercise the privileges without the proper medical. No where does it say that you need to be able to excercise the privileges of the commercial to use your CFI certificate. It only says you must posses one. This is why it doesn't matter if you have a first class medical or no medical because you are exercising the privileges of your CFI (assuming you don't have to act as PIC), and you posses at least a commercial license.


Okay, this thread has gone way off topic. Sorry to anyone who has gotten sick of this.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

What is it that you don't agree with? Are you saying a commercial pilot can not instruct?

I suspect it's because this is one of the most incredibly useless threads we've seen in a long time. I have as much fun with purely academic arguments as much as anyone (maybe more), but extensive arguing over whether you have to have one more credit card size-and-weight card with you or can pretend that your private or commercial student wasn't justifiably expecting to be able to log the flight toward training requirements or whether the the FAA could prove it under the applicable "more likely than not" standard for proof in certificate actions if for some reason it wanted to use the violation for some purpose is about as silly as it gets.

I don't understand why no one else can see this the way I see it...

There's probably a good reason.

Sure, a commercial pilot can give instruction for hire without a CFI certifciate. Of course, none of it is logable by the student as training received toward an FAA requirement, nor by the commercial pilot as training given or as PIC based solely on training given.

And sure, a private pilot can give instruction, so long as it is not for hire. Of course, again, none of it logable by the student as training received toward a requirement, nor by the commercial pilot as training given or as PIC based solely on training given.

I'll even give you that the requirement to have the CFI certificate on your person is probably totally unnecessary.

So, what does all that have to do with the price of tomatoes in Saskatchewan?

 

[Blip16]

i am not sure how me asking when my new temp CFI cert ended up being i don't need it with me to instruct? I will have multi engine students who have never flown a multi-engine airplane before. so i will need my CFI with me all the time, end of story

 

[butt]

Okay, butt, I'm not going to go through the whole "student instruction" argument again. I'm not that motivated to try and convince you.

Don't try to change the subject. Your whole argument is based on the assumption that "student instruction" as its listed in 119.1 means specifically "student instruction with a certified flight instructor". There is absolutly no evidence to suggest this. Proof that this is wrong can be found in the various sections of Part 61 that specify time with a CFI as "with a qualified instructor".

I'm just going to point out three specific things that have been brought up that I'd like to point your attention to.

#1. Part 119 is about operators certification, not pilot certification.

#2. A commercial license is required for CFI privileges.

#3. Your medical status does not change your pilot certificate at all.

My original point was that you don't need the CFI to do do just a plain ol' instruction flight and get paid to do it. None of these points has anything to do with that.

#1 - 119.1 is a list of operations that do not fall within the scope of 135, 121, 125, etc. I agree with you, they do not directly say "hey now you have a commercial license, you can now do these things", but rather "hey remember that paragraph in 61 about common carriage? well these are exempted from that restriction, all you need is a commercial license"

Its not proof that you can do it, its proof that you aren't restricted from doing it.

If you look in part 61, no where does it list all the things a commercial pilot can and cannot do. All it says is "you can now get paid as long as its not common carriage". Anything under the sun that can get me paid I can legally do. To say that 119.1 doesn't apply to pilots because of the title of the part is just absurd.

#2 - I always thought the opposite. I was under the impression that you had to have the commercial to apply for the CFI, but the privilege of getting paid to instruct is also built into the CFI certificate. Once you have the CFI, you have the ability to instruct and get paid regardless of your pilot certificate. You're getting paid as a flight instructor, not as a commercial pilot. And I don't see how having a commercial but can't use the privileges because you don't have a 2nd class is any different than not having a commercial at all (regarding operating privileges). If thats the case, then why doesn't your CFI certificate cay "must be accompanied by commercial certificate number #####"?

#3 - If you don't have the medical, the certificate is useless. You can't use it's privileges, so then why carry around the card?

Anyways, I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that you don't need a commercial license to get paid to flight instruct. Can someone back me up on this?

I suspect it's because this is one of the most incredibly useless threads we've seen in a long time. I have as much fun with purely academic arguments as much as anyone (maybe more), but extensive arguing over whether you have to have one more credit card size-and-weight card with you or can pretend that your private or commercial student wasn't justifiably expecting to be able to log the flight toward training requirements or whether the the FAA could prove it under the applicable "more likely than not" standard for proof in certificate actions if for some reason it wanted to use the violation for some purpose is about as silly as it gets.

Call me crazy, but I like all legal ambiguities cleared up for my own protection. If the FAA ever tries to fine me, I'm doing whatever I can to legally wiggle my way out. You wouldn't do the same?

Instructing without my CFI card is not something I ever see myself doing, but it's definitely possible. Lets say I forgot my whole wallet behind. If I get ramp checked, they are going to ding me for not having my CFI, my commercial, my medical, a photo ID, and maybe a few others. If I can get just one of those items removed from the rap sheet, I'm going to try my hardest to do whatever it takes. Wouldn't you too? Complete understanding of the FARs is not in a million years something I'd characterize as "silly as it gets"

Sure, a commercial pilot can give instruction for hire without a CFI certificate. Of course, none of it is logable by the student as training received toward an FAA requirement, nor by the commercial pilot as training given or as PIC based solely on training given.

Yes I agree.

And sure, a private pilot can give instruction, so long as it is not for hire. Of course, again, none of it logable by the student as training received toward a requirement, nor by the commercial pilot as training given or as PIC based solely on training given.

Good, we agree again. If the FAA tells you that you need your CFI on you to have the privilege to instruct, you can tell them "NUH UH".

As far as logging it or not, the way I see it, the only time the CFI certificate is every being used is when the holder is signing a logbook or 8710. As long as all logbooks and 8710's are being signed on the ground, a CFI should never have to exercise his CFI privileges in the air UNLESS he doesn't have commercial privileges.

I'll even give you that the requirement to have the CFI certificate on your person is probably totally unnecessary.

Its more than "probably" unnecessary. It is unnecessary (in most cases). This is a good thing to know.

So, what does all that have to do with the price of tomatoes in Saskatchewan?

The well being of my certifications.

i am not sure how me asking when my new temp CFI cert ended up being i don't need it with me to instruct? I will have multi engine students who have never flown a multi-engine airplane before. so i will need my CFI with me all the time, end of story

Uh, no, not end of story. No flight is ever required to have a CFI. All flights do need a PIC, but never a flight instructor specifically. The CFI certificate does not give anyone the privilege of being the PIC. That is what the pilot license is for.

To do a training flight with a non-rated pilot, the instructor must act as PIC. Its the pilot certificate that gives the instructor that authority. This is basic stuff.

 

[Stone Cold]

Butt, for the love of God, please tell me you are not an instructor...please!!! Wow, this thread is just bad, and I want those 15 minutes of my life back!!!

As Bob said, 07/09!:bandit: Oh and congrats to Buick!!! Please don't be like this guy and lead your studs astray (badly)...

 

[butt]

Butt, for the love of God, please tell me you are not an instructor...please!!! Wow, this thread is just bad, and I want those 15 minutes of my life back!!!

As Bob said, 07/09!:bandit: Oh and congrats to Buick!!! Please don't be like this guy and lead your studs astray (badly)...

Since you're the one coming out and making the claim that I'm a bad instructor by not understanding this, it's your duty to end this whole thing by clarifying everything since you know it all, right? Otherwise, you are also a bad instructor leading your students astray as well.

edit: I'm not asking this because I want to embarrass you or anything, I just honestly want to get to the bottom of this. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. I know you know all about his subject, because I don't believe you'd make such a claim otherwise.

 

[moxiepilot]

Anyways, I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that you don't need a commercial license to get paid to flight instruct.

Butt, for the love of God, please tell me you are not an instructor...

unfortunately, in one of butt's post he implied he is a CFI. I'm all for education. Who knows, as silly as the thread has become maybe someone has learned something by reading it.

my advice to butt is to pick up the FAR AIM and start reading. A number of posts include "i think ___" instead of FAR § XX.xx states, what contradicts or supports this...

Before you continue your search for answers, just review the regs a little more thoroughly instead of trying to connect regs which make your argument appear to you as valid, when they are disconnected.

again, we'll help you come to the reason as to why things are the way they are, but there has to be some give and take here of listening to the responses that do not coincide to your thoughts.

 

[Stone Cold]

Since you're the one coming out and making the claim that I'm a bad instructor by not understanding this, it's your duty to end this whole thing by clarifying everything since you know it all, right? Otherwise, you are also a bad instructor leading your students astray as well.

edit: I'm not asking this because I want to embarrass you or anything, I just honestly want to get to the bottom of this. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. I know you know all about his subject, because I don't believe you'd make such a claim otherwise.

Butt, do yourself and everybody in this thread a favor and READ the responses, not just try to pick them apart. You need a CFI to instruct, and a pilot certificate to operate as a CFI. Period. It right there in the responses. DOn't use the logic that just because you find one reg that reads...well, the regs don't say you can't, so that means you can. It's flawed logic.

Please read the FAR's and the posts in this thread and if you still have questions, feel free to ask. I'll finish by saying, yes you are wrong on your thinking...we just need to get you to see the flaws in your logic.

And, no it's not my duty to teach you how to read the regs, just beacuse you are making some wild claims on how to read the regs.

 

[butt]

Butt, do yourself and everybody in this thread a favor and READ the responses, not just try to pick them apart.

I'm going to pick them apart if they are made by posters who will not cite the regulation that backs their claim up. Just because "Stone cold" from the internet said so doesn't make it true.

You need a CFI to instruct, and a pilot certificate to operate as a CFI. Period.

No you don't, and no you don't. You only need a CFI to instruct and have it count towards a certificate or rating. You don't need the CFI just to do the instruction. Aerobatic instruction is not for a certificate or rating, so aerobatic instructors can do all the training they want and it's perfectly legal as long as the student doesn't try to log it as dual received or the instructor try to log the time not the sole manipulator as PIC. The instructor can even get paid to do that instruction in they have a valid commercial license along with a second class medical.

Wheres the regulation to prove this? Look in 61.133(a)(1). It says:

(a) Privileges —(1) General. A person who holds a commercial pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft—

(i) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire, provided the person is qualified in accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation; and

(ii) For compensation or hire, provided the person is qualified in accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation.

Which basically says if it's legal to do it under 91 rules, then you can do it for hire.

And as far as you needing a commercial to exercise privileges of a CFI certificate, please tell me where it says this in the regs. 61.183 is a list of requirements you need to take the checkride. It is not a list of things you must have to exercise the privileges.

Its hard to prove this because most of the things listed there can't be taken away. This is basically the list:

1. 18 years old
2. speak English
3. have a commercial license and an instrument rating with the right category and class ratings
4. logbook endorsement
5. pass the FOI
6. pass the FIA (or whatever is appropriate)
7. pass the practical
8. have all the spin training endorsements
9. have the 15 ME PIC for the MEI
10. follow the rest of the regulations that go more into detail.

No where does it infer that all of these conditions must be maintained in order to have the privileges of the certificate. I always thought it was common knowledge that these requirements were a one time only thing. Are there any other regulations that specifically say you need commercial certificate to exercise CFI privileges? And don't just say "its written right there on the certificate", because on the certificate it says "must be accompanied by pilot certificate number #####", not ""must be accompanied by commercial certificate number #####".

I know I originally said you don't even need a pilot certificate at all to exercise CFI privileges, but I admit I may be wrong. I may have remembered wrong. But I am 100% posotive you do not need a commercial license to exercise CFI privileges. There has to be some FAA people out there that can confirm this.

[/quote]It right there in the responses. Don't use the logic that just because you find one reg that reads...well, the regs don't say you can't, so that means you can. It's flawed logic.
[/quote]

Where does it say "you have the right to carry women in an airplane"? Where does it say, "you must not murder people in an airplane"? It doesn't say either. That doesn't mean you can kill people in airplanes, nor can't take women. There are many privileges and limitations inferred in the regulations that aren't specifically stated.

In the case of commercial pilot privileges, it clearly comes out and states, "you can get paid to do anything you could normally do under part 91 rules (or 135 or 125 or whatever)". And since no where in 91 does it say you can't do instruction, you can do instruction, get paid and it's perfectly legal.

And if you think you can come up with some weird way of claiming part 91 forbids any kind of instruction unless the instructor is a CFI, then you better tell this to all those private pilots who teach landings and stuff to their wives because the FAA is coming for them.

Please read the FAR's and the posts in this thread and if you still have questions, feel free to ask. I'll finish by saying, yes you are wrong on your thinking...we just need to get you to see the flaws in your logic.

Please, tell me where my logic is wrong. If it turns out that you're the one who is wrong, then it's you who is the bad instructor as well by "leading your students astray."

Don't get me wrong, this isn't meant as an insult. Someone like yourself (and anyone else in this thread) who seems to be so be so eager to throw around such a claim, must not hold much value in their own title of "instructor". Am I correct?

 

[Blip16]

§ 61.193 Flight instructor privileges.

A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is authorized within the limitations of that person's flight instructor certificate and ratings to give training and endorsements that are required for, and relate to:
(a) A student pilot certificate;
(b) A pilot certificate;
(c) A flight instructor certificate;
(d) A ground instructor certificate;
(e) An aircraft rating;
(f) An instrument rating;
(g) A flight review, operating privilege, or recency of experience requirement of this part;
(h) A practical test; and
(i) A knowledge test.

being as i will be giving training for ' (e) An aircraft rating'; i need my CFI with me, and i carry it at all times, i just needed to ensure what i was writing ,exp. 07/09, was correct. that is all. not do i even need a CFI to give training. It is just plain ignorant to think you don't need a CFI to give legal training. i am not going out and helping random Joe Pilot off the street perfect his landings, i am training students for new aircraft ratings and conducting BFR's and IPC's, therefore i need my CFI cert with me, and i needed to know when it expired.

end of story!

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Don't kick Butt where he's right. He's right that a CFI is only needed for instruction that is logged or counted toward FAR requirements of one type or another. His FAR references on that are pretty solid.

Butt, where I think you go astray is on this concept that (a) you're going to weasel out of a violation on some idea that until you actualy endorse the student's logbook, the FAA woud have no evidence and (b) that's it's important enough to argue about.

Neither (a) nor (b) has nothing to do with the FAR. My view on (a) is based somewhat on related experience about what works and what doesn't and (b) is strictly a matter of personal preference.

 

[Stone Cold]

What exactly is the point in istructing if you can't log it, nor can your stud? Even if you aren't wanting another rating, it makes no sense. Let's use your example of aerobatic instructing. So, you go get instruction by a commercial pilot, but cannot log it. What does it do for you? You can't tell anybody you did it. You can't log it to further your cause for upset training, or anything. All it is is 2 pilots out basically doing a joy ride. If this is all you want, knock yourself out. I myself, will always get an instructor.

provided the person is qualified in accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation

What exactly does this mean to you. To me, it means the person must be qualified for the particular operation. For a CFI, they have to have a pilot certificate accompanying their CFI...it's stated right on the certificate. I think that might mean something to the FAA.

In the case of commercial pilot privileges, it clearly comes out and states, "you can get paid to do anything you could normally do under part 91 rules (or 135 or 125 or whatever)". And since no where in 91 does it say you can't do instruction, you can do instruction, get paid and it's perfectly legal.

Look under 61...also known as "CERTIFICATION: PILOTS, FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS, AND GROUND INSTRUCTORS". This is the "with the applicable parts" section of the above reg. This is the one that matters to CFI's and pilot certification, as stated in the title. Read it. become intimately familiar with it. This is what you use as a CFI. Part 91 CFR is "GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES", meaning what normal operations should look like...i.e., how you can operate the airplane in day to day ops. It has nothing to do with the privileges of a CFI cert or what is needed to use this cert.

As far as you bringing Part 119 CFR into this, "CERTIFICATION: AIR CARRIERS AND COMMERCIAL OPERATORS" is the operators certification process and what they can and cannot do, as stated before by a couple of users.

You, as an instructor, must have been led astray in your training on the Code of Federal Regulations, as it pertains to being a CFI, teaching them, and knowing how to interpret them. Look in the applicable part of them to find the information. This one is really black and white!!

Good luck to your students, as I'm sure they are more confused than they should be if you have them bouncing around looking for loopholes to get what they want out of the regs.

Once again, since I know you'll say it, knock yourself out giving instruction that nobody can log, and giving instruction to your wife, kids, whatever...I'll keep my CFI cert active and give instruction that means something, and if by chance, I need or want work as an INSTRUCTOR, I'll be qualified to benefit my studs, not just me with loopholes. Once again, answer why anybody would want to pay for instruction they can't log!?!?!

I'm done, as that's all the time and energy I care to put into your discussion here. Sorry to the OP for this thread being ruined. The answer is still 07/09!!

 

[Blip16]

Don't kick Butt where he's right. He's right that a CFI is only needed for instruction that is logged or counted toward FAR requirements of one type or another. His FAR references on that are pretty solid.

but that wasn't my original question. i only wanted to verify when it expired. I only do instruction that is logged, as i have previously stated. If i am up joyriding with my friends obviously no instruction is being given, but that doesn't happen very often

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

but that wasn't my original question.

and you expected that there would be no thread creep?

 

[Blip16]

and you expected that there would be no thread creep?

not quite that far off topic.....

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

What exactly is the point in istructing if you can't log it, nor can your stud? Even if you aren't wanting another rating, it makes no sense. Let's use your example of aerobatic instructing. So, you go get instruction by a commercial pilot, but cannot log it. What does it do for you? You can't tell anybody you did it. You can't log it to further your cause for upset training, or anything. All it is is 2 pilots out basically doing a joy ride. If this is all you want, knock yourself out. I myself, will always get an instructor.

That's not true. Where did you get "You can't tell anybody you did it"? Of course you can. You can tel anyone you want, even the local FSDO Inspector and even do an extensive write-up in your logbook about it. Just don't put it in the "instruction received" column.

Value?

Hmm. You live in Podunk and just bought a high-performance airplane. You have enough experience that all the insurance company cares about is a 1-hour checkout with a CFI, but you really want to learn the airplane.

The nearest qualified CFI is 60 miles away. On top of that, his primary "qualification" is that he's a CFI, but his time in type is pretty minimal.

Fortunately, there's a non-CFI at your airport. Heck, let's go further. He's 70 years old, retired airline captain, lost his medical due to a heart condition, and, he's got 80 bazillion hours in the type airplane you just bought.

I don't know how you would approach learning how to fly that airplane, but I'll take care of the 1-hour requirement with the CFI, but "knock myself out" learn how to fly it from the ex-captain.

 

[butt]

Don't kick Butt where he's right. He's right that a CFI is only needed for instruction that is logged or counted toward FAR requirements of one type or another. His FAR references on that are pretty solid.

So you don't need a pilot certificate at all to use your CFI privileges? Or do you need at least a private? If so, whats the point of the "must be accompanied by pilot certificate # XXXXX" printed on the back?

Butt, where I think you go astray is on this concept that (a) you're going to weasel out of a violation on some idea that until you actualy endorse the student's logbook, the FAA would have no evidence

Its not so much "they wouldn't have evidence of you breaking the reg", but rather "you wouldn't be breaking any regs".

From reading the regs pertaining to CFI certificates, I get the impression that the only real privilege you get from having a CFI is the ability to sign your name on FAA documents as a certified flight instructor. The CFI certificate gives you other privileges, but those privileges are also included in the commercial certificate (such as getting paid to do instruction in planes). With that in mind, it can be argued that until you actually sign your name in the student's logbook, you aren't using any of your CFI privileges.

Furthermore, I don't think anywhere in the regs does it specify what conditions need to be met before you have the ability to exercise CFI privileges. For instance, it does explicitly specify what conditions need to be met in order to exercise privileges of a pilot certificate (must have medical, must be current to take passengers, must have done a flight review, must be rated, etc). There are no such equivilent requirements for the CFI certificate (if there were, it would also clearly state you needed a commercial or not which would end that argument).

With that in mind, you could infer that just by being a holder of a CFI certificate, you are considered a "authorized instructor" in the eyes of 61.123(c), 61.103(d), 61.96(b)(3), etc etc etc.

Its sort of like the rule that you must have a valid US state drivers license in order to operate as a sport pilot. Operation of a light sport aircraft isn't a "privilege" of a Utah drivers license anymore than instructing with the intent to log towards a certifiate or rating.

In sum, the only time you are ever actually exercising a privilege of the CFI certificate IN THE AIR, regardless of whether it is going to be logged or not, is when you're instructing without commercial privileges (either from revocation or a lapsed medical), and therefore would need to take advantage of the "you can get paid to instruct with just a CFI certificate" part of the CFI (which isn't mentioned in the regs anywhere that I'm aware of, but I know can be done)

it's important enough to argue about.

Well we disagree then. I think thinking critically about FARs is always a good thing. Whether or not this situation comes up is beside the point. It's like saying Suduko (or whatever those things are called) are not important enough to do. Anyways, the reason I decided to bring it up was because I was thinking about the situation i'm in right now, and I hit a little snag.

You see, right now all my students have already finished their private, and are well underway with instrument training. My flight school has instrument stage one and two all local dual flights of practicing DME arcs, holds, VOR approaches, etc, then stage 3 being entirely PIC cross country time building. I've done some of these flights, and for the most part, I'm just a passenger sitting in the right seat until we get to our destination and its time to do an approach. During these flights, the primary purpose is to build PIC cross country time, not for me to give instruction. I'm welcome to give instruction, but the syllabus allready covers all the dual requirements for the instrument rating.

During these flights, what am I? Am I a CFI giving instruction for a certificate or rating? Or am I a commercial pilot getting paid to instruct these students while they time build for the instrument rating? How can you legally prove one or the other?

What if another student (not one of "my" students) is doing a solo cross counrty for the private requirements, and his plane breaks down at an airport 50 miles away? I fly there to pick him up. On the way back I allow him to practice slow flight and soft fields. Was I a CFI giving instruction towards a certificate or rating, or was I a commercial pilot who happened to be a CFI giving instruction that just happened to be for a certificate or rating?

You see what I'm trying to say? It is very hard to differentiate between a pilot acting as a CFI and a pilot acting as a commercial pilot. Nowhere in the regs does it specify the difference between the two.

not quite that far off topic.....

And you got your answer in the third reply. Do you think you own this part of the discussion just because you happened to start the thread?

 

[Blip16]

And you got your answer in the third reply. Do you think you own this part of the discussion just because you happened to start the thread?

yes if you wanted to argue this, you should have created your own thread about the topic

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Don't kick Butt where he's right. He's right that a CFI is only needed for instruction that is logged or counted toward FAR requirements of one type or another. His FAR references on that are pretty solid.

So you don't need a pilot certificate at all to use your CFI privileges? Or do you need at least a private? If so, whats the point of the "must be accompanied by pilot certificate # XXXXX" printed on the back?

I haven't a clue how your response relates to my comment, but you disagreeing with a comment that says you are right =might= raise certain trollish questions in some people.

 

[butt]

yes if you wanted to argue this, you should have created your own thread about the topic

Well it happened to not work out that way so lets all just huddle together and cry ourselves a collective electronic river.

I haven't a clue how your response relates to my comment

When you said "a CFI is only needed for instruction that is logged or counted toward FAR requirements of one type or another" were you admitting you don't need a pilot certificate to be a CFI or were you talking about something else?

If you were, you agree with what I've always been taught.

, but you disagreeing with a comment that says you are right =might= raise certain trollish questions in some people.

This isn't a game to me. I don't see discussing things here as something you either win or lose. It's sad, but many people here do see it exactly that way.

If someone throws up a argument that proves me wrong, it's going to have to stand up to the same level of scrutiny I hold every single arguments I believe in. I'm not going to let a one sentence reply that basically amounts to "uh you can't do that" when it goes against paragraphs I've written and come to understand with great scrutiny.

I have no idea why the CFI certificate has that sentence printed on the back. I honestly want to know. In the process of understanding of the CFI regulations, I never thought of that little requirement. It seems to go directly against the notion I had that you don't need a pilot certificate to instruct. Any time theres a item that comes up that goes against a belief I hold, I want that item either squashed, or my belief is altered. But you'll never see me turn my head away.

Its really sad, but it seemed on this website, turning your head the other way seems to be the norm. It's happened to me three times already. I get into an argument with someone (or some people) and after a few exchanges, the burden of proof gets shifted to the other person and all they can come back with is "I'm not doing this anymore, you're just so dumb I'm not going to waste my time with you any more". It happened here with Stone cold, it's happened before with other people here, and it'll unfortunately happen again.

I never expected to come out of this thread with the same beliefs I had when coming in. The same goes for any thread on any message board. I just wish I wasn't alone on this.