For those more experienced CFI's out there, if you have a 35-40 hour student, that has soloed, does most things average at best, but, has problems with almost every landing. Is this student far enough along that he can be told that it does not look like he is cut out to be a pilot and probably will not cut it? Or is it way too early in the training to even consider this advice? This student wants to go on and obtain an Instrument Rating as well. Is 35-40 hours enough to know if a student can cut it or not, and what if you feel there is no way he would be able to handle the training for an instrument rating. Is it too early to say anything or do you say anything at all?
New CFI Student Evaluation
- Thread starter Airmann
- Start date
tgrayson
New Member
Heavens, no. And I don't think that one instructor, no matter how experienced, is competent to judge what a person might or might not be able to do in the future. Perhaps something just needs to click for this student and he's waiting for that one critical insight from his instructor...
msmspilot
Well-Known Member
+1.
The only student I ever encouraged to find other activities was one who showed up for multiple lessons hung over, and not always on alcohol.
Is this student a younger person (teenager) or an adult? What kind of work do they do? I noticed several of the small business owner types had to be told, "Ok, put this on your schedule. You need to make these things (list off ground study and flight training activities) priorities if you're going to finish this rating."
unclenobby
Well-Known Member
No- that would be the worst thing you can do. Figure out the problem (problem with every landing is a very broad description)? Help the student fix the problem.
That's why they pay us the big bucks.
If they have already soloed I presume they demonstrated proficiency in landing?
That's why they pay us the big bucks.
If they have already soloed I presume they demonstrated proficiency in landing?
Mike H
Well-Known Member
Whether it's flying, or anything else, when the student isn't quite getting something, it's nearly always because there's that one critical insight that's missing- often something we wouldn't otherwise think was very significant
Fly_Unity
Well-Known Member
Once I got a student that had 40 hours total time when her Instructor gave her the talk, I went flying and determined that she could barely see out the window. Gave her a cushion to sit on and she did great after that. She is now flying a Boeing 737
amjon
Pilot and A Half (for now
Have someone else fly with the student. Sometimes flying with a second (or third or more) person is all it takes. They may explain something in a way that you haven't that the student can understand better.
Pilotforhire587
Lycra Man
I have had students take 35 hours going part 141 and others take 80 hours to get a ppl. Just depends on the student. If they are getting everything but the landing with you, send them up with someone else and see what they can do. It is amazing what a different approach in teaching can do for a student.
moxiepilot
Well-Known Member
without reading any of the responses, my experience (a few thousand dual given) is that this is way too early to judge a student. Unless they are showing SEVERE abnormal behavior, you should not be telling them they are not going to become a pilot.
Fly_Unity
Well-Known Member
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
It took about 1000 landings before I felt like I knew what I was doing. And I am happy with about 1 in 10 of them now. Maybe after 10,000 they will all be perfect, but I doubt it.
At about 40 hours for me, it kind of clicked - it takes time, different for everyone. I don't think there is any magic way, just keep at it. Absolutely DO NOT discourage someone, reassure them they will get it, keep them relaxed, and it will happen.
What exactly is going wrong? Not an easy thing to answer, but when you can articulate it well to a non-pilot, I bet you will solve the problem.
Hell, it took me longer to learn to parallel park than it did to land a Cessna. Glad I didn't give up on that.
At about 40 hours for me, it kind of clicked - it takes time, different for everyone. I don't think there is any magic way, just keep at it. Absolutely DO NOT discourage someone, reassure them they will get it, keep them relaxed, and it will happen.
What exactly is going wrong? Not an easy thing to answer, but when you can articulate it well to a non-pilot, I bet you will solve the problem.
Hell, it took me longer to learn to parallel park than it did to land a Cessna. Glad I didn't give up on that.
All of the replies have been so helpful. This student with the 35-40 hours indicates his desire to not only obtain his PPL, but, wants to go on and get his intrument rating as well. Even though he has paid for the training up front, this too is something I have initially felt this 50 something student has very little chance of being able to obtain? Can you veteran CFI's tell at 40 hours if a student has the ability and what it takes to earn the instrument rating? Even if it is felt there is little to no chance of earning it, should he be encouraged to go for it anyway?
Here are three more common possible problems:
1) Over controls in the flare
2) Isn't using the right visual cues to land. I.E. horizon for attitude and peripherals for altitude.
3) Every approach, pattern flight, and landing set up and execution is performed differently each landing without noticeable consistencies.
Chucco
Well-Known Member
+1
Totally agree. This has helped me before, too. If you are at a dead end, I think this is a really good idea. Of course then there is always that one instructor who asks you to fly with his student every week to "see what you think about (insert imperfection here)."
gotWXdagain
Polished Member
Seems like you ought to start by focusing on landings then, if all the other stuff is as you say, up to spec. Take a lesson or two where you go out away from an airport, prefereably an area with some space and some roads running in a straight line for a good distance, and then use that road as your "runway." Climb up to about 2.5-3K AGL and set yourself up on a downwind at the same distance from the road as you would fly a downwind at an airport. Its ok that the references will all look different because you'll be much higher, you can tell the student "abeam touchdown" on downwind so they can start their descent, and "45 degrees to touchdown" (I usually count to 5 -depending on groundspeed- after the abeam point to make this call) so they can know when to turn base.
Flap and power settings should be the same as in the actual traffic pattern, so they can feel the proper reduction in power and develop that motor skill - how much will my hand be pulled back to get the proper rpm? how much is a normal descent from TPA to downwind to base corner? ~200-250 feet. How much altitude should I lose on base? again ~ 200-250 feet. Now here's why I do this: If you're trying to teach traffic patterns and landings at the airport, this will give you maybe 300' before touchdown, which for a new or inconsistent student isn't going to be enough time to learn how to stabilize an approach. But if you start at 2,500' MSL, then you roll out on "final" at 2,000' MSL, which gives you 1500' (I recover 500' AGL) to stabilize the approach, letting the student pick the aim point. With that extra 1200' and the "comfort" that at the end of the maneuver there's little possibility of calamity, you'd be surprised how much more calm calm and relaxed the student will be and how much easier it is for them to learn how to fly the airplane... Also there's the added benefit of teaching the go-around at the end of the maneuver, and climb it back up to altitude and do it a few more times.
When the student is nice and consistent on a few of those, take it back to the airport for some low passes. have them flare it, establish the nose attitude for landing, but then add just enough power to stay in ground effect and let them keep it over the center line. After a couple of those look good, let the student start landing it again.
The important thing is that you just picked up this student, if you try to pass him off again, they will start to think that they are being given up on, and they'll start giving up, so I wouldn't reccommend taking that step just yet.
Flap and power settings should be the same as in the actual traffic pattern, so they can feel the proper reduction in power and develop that motor skill - how much will my hand be pulled back to get the proper rpm? how much is a normal descent from TPA to downwind to base corner? ~200-250 feet. How much altitude should I lose on base? again ~ 200-250 feet. Now here's why I do this: If you're trying to teach traffic patterns and landings at the airport, this will give you maybe 300' before touchdown, which for a new or inconsistent student isn't going to be enough time to learn how to stabilize an approach. But if you start at 2,500' MSL, then you roll out on "final" at 2,000' MSL, which gives you 1500' (I recover 500' AGL) to stabilize the approach, letting the student pick the aim point. With that extra 1200' and the "comfort" that at the end of the maneuver there's little possibility of calamity, you'd be surprised how much more calm calm and relaxed the student will be and how much easier it is for them to learn how to fly the airplane... Also there's the added benefit of teaching the go-around at the end of the maneuver, and climb it back up to altitude and do it a few more times.
When the student is nice and consistent on a few of those, take it back to the airport for some low passes. have them flare it, establish the nose attitude for landing, but then add just enough power to stay in ground effect and let them keep it over the center line. After a couple of those look good, let the student start landing it again.
The important thing is that you just picked up this student, if you try to pass him off again, they will start to think that they are being given up on, and they'll start giving up, so I wouldn't reccommend taking that step just yet.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
I inherited a "project" student one time who hadn't soloed in 100 hours. His previous instructors had the "discussion" with him. He is now a commercial pilot. It cost a lot more money, but he did it.
amjon
Pilot and A Half (for now
One of my CFIs and I were discussing this the other day. He said either you have it or it will take LOTS of money to finish even private.
CDNPilotDave
Well-Known Member
How many hours have you flown with this student?
How many instructors has this student had?
What specifically are the problems with the landings?
Can you be more specific about "average"? (Average is smack dab in the middle: as many "better" than "worse". Not the worst place to be - just saying.)
Do you have any insight into this "50 something"'s every day life/background?
How many instructors has this student had?
What specifically are the problems with the landings?
Can you be more specific about "average"? (Average is smack dab in the middle: as many "better" than "worse". Not the worst place to be - just saying.)
Do you have any insight into this "50 something"'s every day life/background?
BajtheJino
I'm looking at you.
I would suggest you pass this student off to someone else. Seems to me by reading your two posts you have already decided that the person is hopeless. I've had some bad students in my day but never once did the idea pop into my head "This guy is never going to make it". Some people just take a long time to "get it". Hell, I fly with 50 year old Captains that can't land (unless by land you mean moving the earth).
Negative thoughts will bring about a disgruntled student, even if you never voice your concerns. Mental attitude has a way of showing up in body language.
Work on your attitude and move on to another student with the mindset that you're going to get that person a license no matter what (as long as they're safe, mature and trying).
