New air traffic controller pay

Not to start a fight or anything, but how do you think this will be true when you have no air traffic experience and only scored in the 'qualified' (83.8) range on the ATSAT? It is a test to see how well you would adapt and potentially learn the air traffic control field. You can't possibly think that you will be done with training faster than 95% of other trainees when you haven't scored better or have more experience than 95% of the future trainees out there.

*sigh* - Just when I thought we were done with the "my dad can beat up your dad" stuff. I stuck up for your premise when you originally began talking about this issue, but I personally think you're way off base here, and you ARE trying to pick a fight with people. The AT-SAT, just like the ACT or SAT or MCAT or GMAT, is an aptitude test to see if you can take a standardized test. Einstein had a 3rd grade education. Bill Gates and Michael Dell never finished college. Are you smarter than them because you have your degree?

A lot of people here have given some very good advice - keep you head down, do your job, and learn as much as you can...then, and only then, should you begin to talk about (and doubt) other people's abilities. You aren't even hired yet...for all we know, you never will be...so you made your point about the FAA seeking candidates with higher AT-SAT scores when nothing else is available to discern a candidate from another. Now, it's time to move on from that point, because at the end of the day it's not your test score that safely lands a plane.
 
Not to start a fight or anything, but how do you think this will be true when you have no air traffic experience and only scored in the 'qualified' (83.8) range on the ATSAT? It is a test to see how well you would adapt and potentially learn the air traffic control field. You can't possibly think that you will be done with training faster than 95% of other trainees when you haven't scored better or have more experience than 95% of the future trainees out there.

Well I have to agree with RobertB. Any applicant who thinks they'll be better than 95% of other people ALREADY has a big head. Let alone the fact that his test score is NOT exceptional. Just from these boards, it is quite apparent that many of the applicants have had much preparation for the AT-SAT, and I suspect many are quite intelligent. Furthermore, when I took the test, the test administrator stated "this is not a test of your intelligence, but rather a test of your APTITUDE for the atc profession." You could be Einstein, but if you can't think spatially or remember what you did 30 seconds ago, then intelligence is not going to help.
 
Well I have to agree with RobertB. Any applicant who thinks they'll be better than 95% of other people ALREADY has a big head. Let alone the fact that his test score is NOT exceptional. Just from these boards, it is quite apparent that many of the applicants have had much preparation for the AT-SAT, and I suspect many are quite intelligent. Furthermore, when I took the test, the test administrator stated "this is not a test of your intelligence, but rather a test of your APTITUDE for the atc profession." You could be Einstein, but if you can't think spatially or remember what you did 30 seconds ago, then intelligence is not going to help.

OK, it seems that some people here think the AT-SAT is going to be a predictor of how well or poorly someone will do as a controller without regard for anything else. While it may show one's APTITUDE for pushing tin, unfortunately for those of you who want to take it as gospel truth, it won't show your ABILITY as a controller. There is a difference...nobody knows how well or poorly you will do until you actually start directing traffic. Thus, to state definitively that someone will or will not be a "good" controller...or that you "know" they will NOT be better than 95% of all applicants is argumentative at best. After all, "letter factory" is not the same thing as bringing in a 747, nor is "analogy."

My point is that becoming argumentative over something like this accomplishes absolutely nothing. Would you prefer she had said, "I'm going to suck as a controller, so I'll just drop my application now to defer to those of you with a better AT-SAT score than me since you'll all do SOOOOO much better." Of course she's going to think that she'll do well, as I hope the rest of us who are applicants would think. If you don't think you can be the best, why apply?

From what I've read, training is a crapshoot anyway...it depends totally on the staffing of the facility. Some people seem to be breezing through their respective training levels, while others still haven't even begun from the backlog in place at their facility. So, there's no guarantee that she'll have even started training, much less "finish faster than 95% of everyone." Why get worked up over that?
 
*sigh* - Just when I thought we were done with the "my dad can beat up your dad" stuff. I stuck up for your premise when you originally began talking about this issue, but I personally think you're way off base here, and you ARE trying to pick a fight with people. The AT-SAT, just like the ACT or SAT or MCAT or GMAT, is an aptitude test to see if you can take a standardized test. Einstein had a 3rd grade education. Bill Gates and Michael Dell never finished college. Are you smarter than them because you have your degree?

A lot of people here have given some very good advice - keep you head down, do your job, and learn as much as you can...then, and only then, should you begin to talk about (and doubt) other people's abilities. You aren't even hired yet...for all we know, you never will be...so you made your point about the FAA seeking candidates with higher AT-SAT scores when nothing else is available to discern a candidate from another. Now, it's time to move on from that point, because at the end of the day it's not your test score that safely lands a plane.

I am not offbase. Everyone kept saying I was 'cocky' and 'pretended to know more than I actually do.' How is her quote not being cocky? There is no way that someone who scored a lower score on an aptitude test against other people can seriously expect to finish training 'faster than 95% of the other trainees.' If you were that potentially intelligent in the air traffic control field, wouldn't you have scored higher on the aptitude test? I know the AT SAT isn't exactly what a controller does, but if you were smart enough to finish faster than 95% of the other trainees, you would have had a better AT SAT score than a 83.8%.

Albert Einstein didn't have a third grade education. He graduated from ETH Zurich, the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology. The equivalent of MIT here in the United States. I think that is much better than a third grade education.

Bill Gates and Michael Dell saw a 'moment' when they could take advantage of their skills in a certain field and use it to found successful businesses. They used their college educations to better themselves in their field of expertise. College is about learning and figuring out a way to use what you know best to better yourself.

The AT SAT is that 'moment' to show how much of an aptitude you have to learn and potentially perform in the air traffic field. You can't seriously expect to finish faster than 95% of the other trainees, if you scored less on the AT SAT, when others showed a greater ability to learn and potentially perform in the air traffic field.
 
Observation from a casual observer:

Some people claim to listen but don't really "hear" what's been said.

Happens a lot, actually.
 
I am not offbase. Everyone kept saying I was 'cocky' and 'pretended to know more than I actually do.' How is her quote not being cocky? There is no way that someone who scored a lower score on an aptitude test against other people can seriously expect to finish training 'faster than 95% of the other trainees.' If you were that potentially intelligent in the air traffic control field, wouldn't you have scored higher on the aptitude test? I know the AT SAT isn't exactly what a controller does, but if you were smart enough to finish faster than 95% of the other trainees, you would have had a better AT SAT score than a 83.8%.

Albert Einstein didn't have a third grade education. He graduated from ETH Zurich, the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology. The equivalent of MIT here in the United States. I think that is much better than a third grade education.

Bill Gates and Michael Dell saw a 'moment' when they could take advantage of their skills in a certain field and use it to found successful businesses. They used their college educations to better themselves in their field of expertise. College is about learning and figuring out a way to use what you know best to better yourself.

The AT SAT is that 'moment' to show how much of an aptitude you have to learn and potentially perform in the air traffic field. You can't seriously expect to finish faster than 95% of the other trainees, if you scored less on the AT SAT, when others showed a greater ability to learn and potentially perform in the air traffic field.

Robert, you're missing the point here. Her comment began with "I am very intelligent and I know I will get through my training faster than 95% of the other ATC trainees." There are a few inferences you're making here...1.) You're assuming that she expects she will get to train first because she's "intelligent"; 2.) You're assuming that there's a direct correlation between an AT-SAT score and a person's ability to grasp real life traffic control; 3.) You're assuming that someone who scores higher on the AT-SAT will automatically make a better controller than someone with a lower score. That last assumption is the one that has me extrememly worried about the basis of your argument...you imply that by her scoring an 83.8 and "only" being in the qualified category that somehow she is inferior to someone who scored an 85 and is in the "well-qualified" category. One question answered incorrectly on a standardized test isn't going to mean she is somehow less able to direct traffic than someone like yourself. Whether you believe it or not, it appears that the FAA hires based on category only, and that the scores are essentially meaningless once given.

That being said, by reading these forums you'll know that your skill or aptitude has NOTHING to do with how fast you begin training. It is solely based on the staffing of the facility, and how fast they can move things along...as others have said in earlier posts, some go faster than others...there's no guarantee that she will even have started training in her facility when some will have completed it and become CPCs. If you're implying that you will somehow be a better controller than her because of your 100%, then you ARE being equally as arrogant and cocky as you're saying she is, because until you've handled traffic yourself, you don't know that.

And, I admit I had my information on Einstein screwed up for some reason.

The point I was trying to make by using non-traditional examples is that standardized test scores by themselves are NOT direct predictors of future performance. They may be indicators of aptitude, but until someone tries a task, nobody knows how well they'll do in a particular field. Tom Brady was a 6th round draft pick, and he's arguably the best quarterback of our generation.

Here are the QBs taken before Brady:

Chad Pennington - Round 1, Pick 18
Giovanni Carmazzi - Round 3, Pick 65
Chris Redman - Round 3, Pick 75
Tee Martin - Round 5, Pick 163
Marc Bulger - Round 6, Pick 168
Spergon Wynn - Round 6, Pick 183

Let's remember that the NFL gives all prospetive players combine days to determine athletic ability, and a Wonderlic test to determine IQ. While those things may determine someone's "chances" of succeeding, people frequently defy odds and succeed where expected to fail or underperform.

All I'm saying is what can you hope to accomplish by picking apart her comment? Until you or she directs traffic, there can be no resolution to that issue...we won't have any empirical data to rely on, so why get worked up about it?
 
I do agree that the checking out quicker than 95% of other trainees was a rather cocky remark. However, it's my personal opinion that 95% of people who don't go into their field of choice with that mentality, are setting themselves up for failure, or medeocre performance at best. I always have the mentality that if the person next to me can do it, then I can do it too. That's not to say that I wouldn't necessarily have to try harder than the other person, or devote more time to studying, but that's my personal mentality. Good luck to all of you fellow applicants out there. We're all in this together.....:)

Applied- Aug 2007
Accepted to Test- Aug 2007
Notified to Test- 12/2007
Tested- Jan 2008
TOL- Mar 2008
FOL- Apr 2008
OKC Class Date- May 8th
 
I do agree that the checking out quicker than 95% of other trainees was a rather cocky remark. However, it's my personal opinion that 95% of people who don't go into their field of choice with that mentality, are setting themselves up for failure, or medeocre performance at best. I always have the mentality that if the person next to me can do it, then I can do it too.
:yeahthat:
 
I do agree that the checking out quicker than 95% of other trainees was a rather cocky remark. However, it's my personal opinion that 95% of people who don't go into their field of choice with that mentality, are setting themselves up for failure, or medeocre performance at best. I always have the mentality that if the person next to me can do it, then I can do it too. That's not to say that I wouldn't necessarily have to try harder than the other person, or devote more time to studying, but that's my personal mentality. Good luck to all of you fellow applicants out there. We're all in this together.....:)


I agree completely!!!!!
 
I've seen people with a better AT-SAT scores than me wash out. They made my class in OKC take the AT-SAT again for research purposes as they have with many classes if not all. That's when it made me realize the test is a bunch of crap to me. I got an 82 the first time and in OKC when I really didn't care what I got because it didn't count for anything I got a 94. This was also taken the second day of class and we hadn't learned anything yet.
 
I've seen people with a better AT-SAT scores than me wash out.

Please don't bring any facts or real life experience into this hypothetical argument. :sarcasm:

We all know the AT SAT is the main criteria for hiring (when all else is equal which is often since most of us have the same qualifications) and the sole indicator of how well you will be able to control traffic. :)
 
Well, if you personally feel that you'll be better than 95% of OTS applicants, than all the more power to you. However, rather than claiming that aloud to others, you should try to show that in your actual performance when hired.

For a forum like this, those statements really don't matter, but I bet if you told that to your instructor/trainer you'd immediately get a bad reputation (at least that's what would happen at my workplace).
 
Please don't bring any facts or real life experience into this hypothetical argument. :sarcasm:

We all know the AT SAT is the main criteria for hiring (when all else is equal which is often since most of us have the same qualifications) and the sole indicator of how well you will be able to control traffic. :)

I actually had pop come out my nose reading this from laughing so hard. :laff:

You're trying to tell me that the world isn't all about hypothetical situations and test scores? That eventually we'll all have to *gasp* actually control some traffic and prove we can do it?
 
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