New 1500 / ATP for 121 Rule, details?

I agree with this. I think that even a flying job that had you get close to stall on a regular basis would help awareness. The Vref +whatever, or 1.3Vso as touchdown speed doesn't suffice to keep you practiced at slow speed handling and maneuvering in my opinion, you need a base of experience be it banner tow, CFI-ing that gives you some bad students, bushrattery that has you operating low and slow, some aero that allows you to experience the full envelope of flight. No. Until you've actually experienced windsheer on final that stalled the airplane out, or a plane encased in ice on approach, or an accelerated stall on a banner pickup, or a student that throws you into a spin on your first flight of slow flight with him, or slow flight in grid patterns at 500AGL for mapping, or one of the myriad of other possible ways to gain experience, you won't know. The airlines are safe for a reason, they have procedures, rules, and profiles which should keep you comfortably away from stalling the airplane, and comfortably away from the shaker. If you don't have the opportunity to do stupid things in airplanes, and scare yourself, or have conditions (and your bad/inexperienced judgment) create situations which are taxing and dangerous, then you will never learn to fly well enough to save your ass when you really need to.

Alternatively/failing that, I would say go out and do an EMT course. At least get some idea about stalling and recovering that is beyond normal...it makes you much more aware of the energy state of the airplane. Actually, I would make that a requirement for ATP if I were the FAA Administrator.
 
You left out the thing that got you the job.

No, it got me the interview. Do not confuse the two. My flight school was no different than the TONS of other schools out there like ALLATPs, ERAU, Florida Tech, OK Univ, etc etc etc. where Pinnacle recruiters come and hire. If you go to big flight schools like ALLATPs, you are bound to get an interview at some point.

You, and the rest of the jetcareers "our don't stink, listen to our heaven-blessed words" can save it. Had I listened to anyone here, I would never have been able to break it into this industry in late 2007 like I did. And with the economic recession, I would have been out for 2008, 2009, and probably 2010 as well. I saved myself 3 years in my aviation career from taking a calculted risk. Instead of listening to the crap here about "avoid RJ programs" , it got me where I wanted quick. If this was a normal industry, I wouldn't have cared. But it's a seniority industry. And whether you like it or not, the sooner you got hired, the better. Personally, I'm for the RJ programs. Had a few friends in my class had some RJ course, they mighta passed. Now the two of them have a Part 121 failure on their record. But hey, they avoided the RJ program, right?
 
No, it got me the interview. Do not confuse the two. My flight school was no different than the TONS of other schools out there like ALLATPs, ERAU, Florida Tech, OK Univ, etc etc etc. where Pinnacle recruiters come and hire. If you go to big flight schools like ALLATPs, you are bound to get an interview at some point.

You, and the rest of the jetcareers "our **** don't stink, listen to our heaven-blessed words" can save it. Had I listened to anyone here, I would never have been able to break it into this industry in late 2007 like I did. And with the economic recession, I would have been out for 2008, 2009, and probably 2010 as well. I saved myself 3 years in my aviation career from taking a calculted risk. Instead of listening to the crap here about "avoid RJ programs" , it got me where I wanted quick. If this was a normal industry, I wouldn't have cared. But it's a seniority industry. And whether you like it or not, the sooner you got hired, the better. Personally, I'm for the RJ programs. Had a few friends in my class had some RJ course, they mighta passed. Now the two of them have a Part 121 failure on their record. But hey, they avoided the RJ program, right?

It helps to have some outside experience too.
 
No, it got me the interview. Do not confuse the two. My flight school was no different than the TONS of other schools out there like ALLATPs, ERAU, Florida Tech, OK Univ, etc etc etc. where Pinnacle recruiters come and hire. If you go to big flight schools like ALLATPs, you are bound to get an interview at some point.

You, and the rest of the jetcareers "our don't stink, listen to our heaven-blessed words" can save it. Had I listened to anyone here, I would never have been able to break it into this industry in late 2007 like I did. And with the economic recession, I would have been out for 2008, 2009, and probably 2010 as well. I saved myself 3 years in my aviation career from taking a calculted risk. Instead of listening to the crap here about "avoid RJ programs" , it got me where I wanted quick. If this was a normal industry, I wouldn't have cared. But it's a seniority industry. And whether you like it or not, the sooner you got hired, the better. Personally, I'm for the RJ programs. Had a few friends in my class had some RJ course, they mighta passed. Now the two of them have a Part 121 failure on their record. But hey, they avoided the RJ program, right?

Personally I'm glad when people post opposing viewpoints. What a boring world this would be if everyone thought exactly the same, no?
 
You, and the rest of the jetcareers "our don't stink, listen to our heaven-blessed words" can save it. Had I listened to anyone here, I would never have been able to break it into this industry in late 2007 like I did. And with the economic recession, I would have been out for 2008, 2009, and probably 2010 as well. I saved myself 3 years in my aviation career from taking a calculted risk. Instead of listening to the crap here about "avoid RJ programs" , it got me where I wanted quick. If this was a normal industry, I wouldn't have cared. But it's a seniority industry. And whether you like it or not, the sooner you got hired, the better.

I am not one of the "our don't stink, listen to our heaven-blessed words" people. In fact I was a low time hire like yourself in 2008. Only I didn't pay 30K for a RJ program, in fact I didn't pay a dollar and got paid(per diem) for the RJ program I did.


Personally, I'm for the RJ programs. Had a few friends in my class had some RJ course, they mighta passed. Now the two of them have a Part 121 failure on their record. But hey, they avoided the RJ program, right?

My guess is they still would have failed, here is why. At Eagle the new hire fail rate has always been about 5%-10%. From about mid-07 to 08 90%-95% of new hires had some kind of RJ program, but the fail rate stayed the same as before the RJ new hires.
 
you need a base of experience be it banner tow, CFI-ing that gives you some bad students, bushrattery that has you operating low and slow, some aero that allows you to experience the full envelope of flight.

...and I usually get harassed when I suggest that acro should be part of basic flying training.

I totally agree; your comment about airlines procedurally making things as safe as possible is spot-on, but the follow-on as to how this effects pilot skills goes all the way back to training much earlier in the process.

I recently went through an initial Type class at Flight Safety for a turboprop, and I was amazed at how close to the "warm, chewy center" of the flight envelope they stayed. Even the "unusual attitudes" weren't unusual in any way. When I asked why they wouldn't set up a more extreme attitude -- you know, something unusual -- they said;

1. Without an aerobatic category aircraft and parachutes, you can't do that (duh...this is why we're training in a simulator, right?)
2. The sim doesn't have a flight model that's accurate outside of the normal parameters, so they weren't sure what it would do.

Bottom line, they trained to an extremely conservative portion of the flight envelope. Even though I left there with a Type Rating in the airplane on my certificate, I have no experience whatsoever with even close to the extremes of the flight envelope. Hell, we didn't even actually stall it, but trained and executed recovery at the first indication of an approaching stall.

In the fighter business, our job is to fly airplanes at the edge of the performance envelope -- to not do so means not using parts of the airplane's capability that could cause us to be beat by another aircraft (or whatever we're maneuvering against). We spend dedicated time training to "Advanced Handling Characteristics" -- beyond just approach to stall training or the standard stuff that keeps us smiply safe. We go find the left side of the chart (up and down the lift limit line with accelerated stalls), go find the top of the chart (max G), and even sometimes the right side of the chart (max airspeed/Mach). Although such training is "tactical", it has the collateral benefit of letting pilots actually see the dark corners of the flight envelope and be reasonably comfortable flying the airplane there. Meaning, when something unusual really happens, and you HAVE to max perform the airplane to keep from smacking the dirt or another airplane, that's not the first time you've attempted to max perform. A pilot who is somewhat familiar with that is less likely to over-shoot those limitations (like pulling into an accelerated stall and keeping the yoke buried in a failed attempt to keep from smacking the dirt).

It floors me that the rest of the world doesn't include at least some training (in a sim even, where it's perfectly safe!) in those dark corners and edges of the flight envelope so that the first time the limits are seen, there aren't innocent paying pax in the back while the pilot is trying to figure it out real time.
 
...and I usually get harassed when I suggest that acro should be part of basic flying training.

Not from me, you won't. Not anymore. I'm a believer now.

Hacker15e said:
It floors me that the rest of the world doesn't include at least some training (in a sim even, where it's perfectly safe!) in those dark corners and edges of the flight envelope so that the first time the limits are seen, there aren't innocent paying pax in the back while the pilot is trying to figure it out real time.

Wholeheartedly agreed. I don't ever want to stall a transport category airplane for real unless I'm an experimental test pilot doing it for certification, but the simulator models should include the ends of the envelope. Might as well do it where it's safe, and get some idea of what to expect.

What you mention was pointed out by the NTSB in the CJC3407 accident report, both in the text and in a finding—
NTSB said:
Pilots could have a better understanding of an airplane’s flight characteristics during the post-stall flight regime if realistic, fully developed stall models were incorporated into simulators that are approved for such training.

Furthermore, incorporating more stall training and specifically the stick shaker/pusher into simulator training (thereby necessitating a simulator flight model that is validated in that dark corner of the envelope) was a recommendation in that report (A-10-23). I don't know if there's been any progress on that documented, as the NTSB recommendations database is currently down.
 
I am not one of the "our don't stink, listen to our heaven-blessed words" people. In fact I was a low time hire like yourself in 2008. Only I didn't pay 30K for a RJ program, in fact I didn't pay a dollar and got paid(per diem) for the RJ program I did.




My guess is they still would have failed, here is why. At Eagle the new hire fail rate has always been about 5%-10%. From about mid-07 to 08 90%-95% of new hires had some kind of RJ program, but the fail rate stayed the same as before the RJ new hires.

Where you saved on the RJ program, you had to spend on the Comm-Single, CFI, CFI-I, ME-I, and buying flight time to get PIC time. Me, I only did 3 checkrides before starting at an airline: Private, Instrument, and Commercial-ME. That was it. I skipped the Comm-SE, the CFI, the CFI-I, and the ME-I. I only had 236 hours when I was hired, so add in the other hours I would need to get the PIC time and to obtain the hours/experience/time required for CommSE/CFI/CFI-I/ME-I. Depending on where I went, it would STILL have cost $27k. I made the choice of skipping those and just doing Jet U. My goal was a regional, not to be an instructor. So I did, and it worked out for me. Keep in mind that had I not done Jet U, I would still have had to spend at least 27k getting all the other stuff just mentioned.

After you do a RJ course, you'd have to be an idiot to wash out of a RJ airline. The CRJ is easy to fly, piece of cake airplane.
 
Furthermore, incorporating more stall training and specifically the stick shaker/pusher into simulator training (thereby necessitating a simulator flight model that is validated in that dark corner of the envelope) was a recommendation in that report (A-10-23). I don't know if there's been any progress on that documented, as the NTSB recommendations database is currently down.

IMO, stall training prior to Colgan crash was just flawed. I was told to just "hold it there' [the yoke] with max power, spoilers in, to minimize altitude loss. This meant riding the shaker. In the landing config on the CRJ, it actually meant some light BACK PRESSURE to keep it in the shaker, with max power spoilers in. It wasn't a whole lot, but it was recognizable. Once in initial, I was letting the nose drop a bit during the shaker for a landing stall, and the checkairman said "no, no, more back pressure, hold it in there! ride it out!" Well, what good is riding it out if you get a pusher? Nowadays, the stall profiles have changed. It is max power, spoilers in, and adjust pitch attitude to regain airspeed and minimize altitude loss as secondary. Our books even tell us now to expect altitude loss during recovery from higher altitudes. This is how it should have been from day 1. Once the shaker goes off, you're close to stall. Add power, and nose down, you will get out of it. If they were trained that in Colgan, maybe then the guys first thought would have been push the yoke as oppose to pull it. Flawed training......
 
Off topic kind of...

After you do a RJ course, you'd have to be an idiot to wash out of a RJ airline. The CRJ is easy to fly, piece of cake airplane.

Being able to fly the CRJ (or ERJ or Boeing or whatever) has absolutely nothing to do with the reality that it takes experience to operate an aircraft, especially one with people in the back. Great... somebody can fly the airplane because it's easy to fly (which it is). As a captain I damn well expect a new hire FO to be able to fly the airplane. Otherwise they should never have made it out of training. What I also expect, yet often times I don't see, especially with guys that have absolutely no real world experience, is the ability to think their way out of a wet paper bag WHILE flying the airplane.
 
you mean we have to multi-task? What the hell will they think of next? I have my certificate from my RJ Training week!!!
Off topic kind of...



Being able to fly the CRJ (or ERJ or Boeing or whatever) has absolutely nothing to do with the reality that it takes experience to operate an aircraft, especially one with people in the back. Great... somebody can fly the airplane because it's easy to fly (which it is). As a captain I damn well expect a new hire FO to be able to fly the airplane. Otherwise they should never have made it out of training. What I also expect, yet often times I don't see, especially with guys that have absolutely no real world experience, is the ability to think their way out of a wet paper bag WHILE flying the airplane.
 
Off topic kind of...



Being able to fly the CRJ (or ERJ or Boeing or whatever) has absolutely nothing to do with the reality that it takes experience to operate an aircraft, especially one with people in the back. Great... somebody can fly the airplane because it's easy to fly (which it is). As a captain I damn well expect a new hire FO to be able to fly the airplane. Otherwise they should never have made it out of training. What I also expect, yet often times I don't see, especially with guys that have absolutely no real world experience, is the ability to think their way out of a wet paper bag WHILE flying the airplane.

Yes, well, that goes for both seats at our airline. 250 hours Private, 250 hours Gulfstream, and 2000 hrs at Pinnacle and upgrade 2500TT. You should see the decision making process of these 2500 hr wonder upgrades...
 
Yes, well, that goes for both seats at our airline. 250 hours Private, 250 hours Gulfstream, and 2000 hrs at Pinnacle and upgrade 2500TT. You should see the decision making process of these 2500 hr wonder upgrades...

I don't disagree with that statement. I was very fortunate to be an FO when all of our captains had several thousand hours and a pretty varied resume before they came to an airline. I've been on the jumpseat a few times recently, as well as heard stories from FOs about new(ish) captains who have no clue what they are doing.
 
Me, I only did 3 checkrides before starting at an airline: Private, Instrument, and Commercial-ME. That was it. I skipped the Comm-SE, the CFI, the CFI-I, and the ME-I. I only had 236 hours when I was hired, so add in the other hours I would need to get the PIC time and to obtain the hours/experience/time required for CommSE/CFI/CFI-I/ME-I.

Think of all the airmanship development you got to miss while you were saving that money! Win-win!

After you do a RJ course, you'd have to be an idiot to wash out of a RJ airline. The CRJ is easy to fly, piece of cake airplane.

So...you're proud to admit that you've sidestepped the normal pipeline via a RJ transition course, and the evidence that your shortcut 'works' is that you passed the RJ checkride and got yourself a seniority number. Yet, right here you show how easy the airplane is to fly. Smooth.
 
Think of all the airmanship development you got to miss while you were saving that money! Win-win!



.
it would take a rare individual to make it in the Brasilia with that background...but at least they are flying a shiny jet whoosh whoossshhhh!!!
 
Where you saved on the RJ program, you had to spend on the Comm-Single, CFI, CFI-I, ME-I, and buying flight time to get PIC time. Me, I only did 3 checkrides before starting at an airline: Private, Instrument, and Commercial-ME. That was it. I skipped the Comm-SE, the CFI, the CFI-I, and the ME-I. I only had 236 hours when I was hired, so add in the other hours I would need to get the PIC time and to obtain the hours/experience/time required for CommSE/CFI/CFI-I/ME-I. Depending on where I went, it would STILL have cost $27k. I made the choice of skipping those and just doing Jet U. My goal was a regional, not to be an instructor. So I did, and it worked out for me. Keep in mind that had I not done Jet U, I would still have had to spend at least 27k getting all the other stuff just mentioned.

Single-Comm is maybe $1K, Also no I,II or MEI here either. But I could get them for $6K. A whole lot less then $30K.

After you do a RJ course, you'd have to be an idiot to wash out of a RJ airline. The CRJ is easy to fly, piece of cake airplane.

I guess there is a lot of idiots because the fail rate is/was about the same for RJ people and non-RJ people.
 
Nice, talking poop about one of your soon to be coworkers. My guess is your not half the pilot that Ari is.

What in the world are you talking about? Who the hell is Ari??

I wasn't talking poop about anybody...did you quote the wrong post?
 
Ah, the CC defense. I did it this way, it was right and anyone that says differently is flat out wrong. Sometimes it's not the low time....it's the ATTITUDE that goes with it. That and guys that think it's okay to step on the guy next to them for an ATP and more pay. I guaran-damn-tee you it's NOT just the guys on Jetcareers think this way. Take it over to the company board, and you'll see the same opinion from guys that haven't even heard of Jetcareers. But, they must be wrong, too.

To someone that asked "Why not raise pay to attract more qualified applicants?" There's your answer. Guys are willing to shell out $30k for an INTERVIEW. Someone was actually giving him a little bit of credit when he said he paid $30k for the job. Then he had to come back and say it was just for the interview. I wouldn't actually be tooting my horn about getting hired at 9E during that time. Pretty well known fact that we'd hire anyone with wet ink and a pulse at the time. If I were an HR person, I'd be more likely to hire someone that shelled out their own money for a sneak peek at our training program, too. HR is only concerned with getting bodies through the door, into the sims and out on the line. Once they're through there, it's the line CAs' problem. A low time guy that's willing to learn, listen and open to ideas, I can handle. Granted, I shouldn't HAVE to teach basic airmanship like cross wind landings and radio phraseology. Guys with "I already know all this" attitudes that keep saying "I can't wait to upgrade" when they can't even master the confusing stuff like discretionary descents or taxi instructions in JFK are the ones that get my blood pressure up. It's even worse that we have guys that have been here for years that are still that way. Bumps on the seat that are waiting for their seniority number to come up so they can make more money, get their 1000 TPIC and go to Southwest. News flash, Sparky. There are guys out there with 3 times that still waiting on phone calls. Believe it or not, we've still got guys that think when they block in at the gate after hour 1001 in the left seat, the heavens will part, angels will sing and Colleen Barrett herself will call to invite them to interview in Dallas.
 
Yes, well, that goes for both seats at our airline. 250 hours Private, 250 hours Gulfstream, and 2000 hrs at Pinnacle and upgrade 2500TT. You should see the decision making process of these 2500 hr wonder upgrades...

Assuming the music hadn't stopped, wouldn't YOU have been one of those 2500 hr wonder upgrades, too?
 
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