New 1500 / ATP for 121 Rule, details?

mike_mays said:
How is it even possbile to fly 121 and have less than 250 PIC? Im not trying to come off wrong, I just dont see how its possible. I have 200TT and 150 PIC.
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It is possible, and I've known many pilots who started with that low PIC time, who now are Boeing or Airbus' Capts.
 
scooter2525 said:
Good idea. Any chance of living with family? I lived with my sister in San Jose back when I was there and the commute sucked, but the price was right. It was probably the only way I could afford to live/work there.
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Unfortunately my family is a few hours away so that wouldn't work. We'll be renting a small apartment somewhere. How did you like working at OAK?
 
TopGunn said:
Yeah but how is it possible? Your PIC time exceeds 200 by the time commercial hits.
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Depending on the part 141 school TCO some students can get out with 190 hours TT with a CSEL and CMEL. Most likely going to have around 165 hours PIC at that point. Also sim can go toward that total time as well.
 
Maurus said:
Depending on the part 141 school TCO some students can get out with 190 hours TT with a CSEL and CMEL. Most likely going to have around 165 hours PIC at that point. Also sim can go toward that total time as well.
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I think in the last few years at Riddle, they had it down to 140 TT with another 50 FTD time. Scary, scary stuff.
 
TopGunn said:
Yeah but how is it possible? Your PIC time exceeds 200 by the time commercial hits.
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Not at most schools. For example: 10 PIC for PVT, 60 for Instrument, and lets call it 130 for your commercial. That is 200 total PIC and 250 TT assuming 60 hours for your PVT. Some schools will enroll you in their "professional pilot program" and spit you out with 190TT and 160ish PIC.

I remember back in 2006-2008 seeing guys instruct for 2 or 3 months max before getting hired...some didn't even instruct at all. Those are the ones who are now sitting right seat somewhere with less than 250 PIC.

Pretty crazy to think about.
 
The lowest that I know of was an FO hired by AE during the last binge in 2007 that had...drumroll... 194TT. Don't know how much of this was PIC but probably less than 125, then theres the whole "well I log it as PIC because I have my PPL even though Im with my instructor lol" or buddy time where you take turns under the hood. I don't know this person's particular situation... but depending upon how you slice it someone with this sort of time probably has less than 75 hours of real pilot in command time of an airplane.
 
HVYMETALDRVR said:
The lowest that I know of was an FO hired by AE during the last binge in 2007 that had...drumroll... 194TT. Don't know how much of this was PIC but probably less than 125, then theres the whole "well I log it as PIC because I have my PPL even though Im with my instructor lol" or buddy time where you take turns under the hood. I don't know this person's particular situation... but depending upon how you slice it someone with this sort of time probably has less than 75 hours of real pilot in command time of an airplane.
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:wtf?:

Did the airlines back in those days not think about what they would have to do one day with all these FOs who have less than 250 PIC?? They must have been more desperate back in those days than I thought if they chalked it up to "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it..."

One thing is for sure. When all those FOs begin to hit the 7 or 8 year mark in the right seat and guys who are 3 or 4 year new hires are upgrading ahead of them heads will begin to roll.....
 
HVYMETALDRVR said:
The lowest that I know of was an FO hired by AE during the last binge in 2007 that had...drumroll... 194TT. Don't know how much of this was PIC but probably less than 125, then theres the whole "well I log it as PIC because I have my PPL even though Im with my instructor lol" or buddy time where you take turns under the hood. I don't know this person's particular situation... but depending upon how you slice it someone with this sort of time probably has less than 75 hours of real pilot in command time of an airplane.
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Just to be a picky bastard:

Sorry, but unless you're asking for ICAO PIC/P1 time and not FAA PIC time, I don't see anything wrong with any of the above as far as logging. And no, we're not having the "omg, how do log PIC time" conversation here, either. :)

Every time I've been released in the circumstances you describe, in particular, while acting as PIC for purposes of logging sim-instrument time, I've STILL done the requisite preflight preparation and still been very much responsible for the safety of the flight and its successful termination. If that's not pilot in commanding, then I don't know what pilot in commanding is.
 
embraer07 said:
:wtf?:

Did the airlines back in those days not think about what they would have to do one day with all these FOs who have less than 250 PIC?? They must have been more desperate back in those days than I thought if they chalked it up to "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it..."

One thing is for sure. When all those FOs begin to hit the 7 or 8 year mark in the right seat and guys who are 3 or 4 year new hires are upgrading ahead of them heads will begin to roll.....
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Or they can go out and rent a 172 and get the time, which I think is what most of them do.

This isn't a new issue for the guys over at Beagle. I remember being told about this years ago, and guys having to go and find their PIC time somehow.
 
mike_mays said:
How is it even possbile to fly 121 and have less than 250 PIC? Im not trying to come off wrong, I just dont see how its possible. I have 200TT and 150 PIC.
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Because some folks managed to get hired at 121 regionals by doing a "RJ Transition" course, lacking an instructor certificate, and about 190-200 hours of TOTAL TIME, much less PIC. Circa 2006-2008.
 
surreal1221 said:
Because some folks managed to get hired at 121 regionals by doing a "RJ Transition" course, lacking an instructor certificate, and about 190-200 hours of TOTAL TIME, much less PIC. Circa 2006-2008.
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Understand and agree (mostly), but why the need for the instructor certificate unless they are in the training department?
 
ComplexHiAv8r said:
Understand and agree (mostly), but why the need for the instructor certificate unless they are in the training department?
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Go get one and you'll find out why people say that.

It makes you a whole heck of a lot better pilot in my experience, in the experience of everybody I've trained, and the majority of guys I've worked with. Some folks think you're just watching somebody else fly half the time, but it preps you for the next step (something with turbine engines on it) very well.
 
mojo6911 said:
I am sure a few hundred extra hours teaching stalls would have helped Capt. Marvin.
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...or getting stall recovery instructed correctly within the first 15 hours of training, or stalling an airplane inverted/in other funky attitudes, or doing just about anything else besides the PTS recoveries, which, at least until recently, emphasized minimum altitude loss, not getting the airplane flying again. Or if they weren't tired. Or if the shaker/pusher were required in the -8-400 training program. Or if this, or if that.

Public policy scholars write about streams of problems, streams of policies/solutions, and streams of politics. When a problem occurs, and the people see that there is a problem and demand action (the politics part), whichever solution (the policy) is floating in the pool gets attached to that problem, and the problem is declared solved[1]. To be fair, a confluence of all three is not strictly required to have policy changes made, but stuff only really gets done when all three meet.

In the specific case of CJC3407, there was a high-profile problem (airplane crashed and people died; pilots tired, lack of qualification and disclosures of training events, generally cruddy safety practices, and so on) with sufficient public pressure to do something about it. The solution being offered was the 1500/ATP rule, along with a few other things in H.R. 5900 (see, for instance, the full bill, which also mandates ASAP, FOQA and SMS implementation by 121 carriers and calls for additional inspection oversight — in all, a pretty good bill). Is it a perfect solution? No. Is it a solution that will fix some things? Absolutely.

An unrelated aside: We also have the tremendous benefit of hindsight bias in analyzing accidents. Which leads to :deadhorse:

None of this shall be construed as arguing against the benefits of additional time in an airplane of any sort, but the number of hours in a logbook is not the only determining factor in how good or bad an airman is. Experience is but one factor in the total sum of an airman that includes attitudes towards the job, technical knowledge, and the quality and quantity of training received.

[1] See Kingdon, 1984, best summarized here — can't be bothered to repeat it all, but that's the tl;dr version.
 
embraer07 said:
:wtf?:

Did the airlines back in those days not think about what they would have to do one day with all these FOs who have less than 250 PIC?? They must have been more desperate back in those days than I thought if they chalked it up to "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it..."

One thing is for sure. When all those FOs begin to hit the 7 or 8 year mark in the right seat and guys who are 3 or 4 year new hires are upgrading ahead of them heads will begin to roll.....
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Nice, talking poop about one of your soon to be coworkers. My guess is your not half the pilot that Ari is.
[modhat] Let's not get personal OK?[/modhat]
 
Autothrust Blue said:
...or getting stall recovery instructed correctly within the first 15 hours of training, or stalling an airplane inverted/in other funky attitudes, or doing just about anything else besides the PTS recoveries, which, at least until recently, emphasized minimum altitude loss, not getting the airplane flying again. Or if they weren't tired. Or if the shaker/pusher were required in the -8-400 training program. Or if this, or if that.
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I agree with this. I think that even a flying job that had you get close to stall on a regular basis would help awareness. The Vref +whatever, or 1.3Vso as touchdown speed doesn't suffice to keep you practiced at slow speed handling and maneuvering in my opinion, you need a base of experience be it banner tow, CFI-ing that gives you some bad students, bushrattery that has you operating low and slow, some aero that allows you to experience the full envelope of flight. No. Until you've actually experienced windsheer on final that stalled the airplane out, or a plane encased in ice on approach, or an accelerated stall on a banner pickup, or a student that throws you into a spin on your first flight of slow flight with him, or slow flight in grid patterns at 500AGL for mapping, or one of the myriad of other possible ways to gain experience, you won't know. The airlines are safe for a reason, they have procedures, rules, and profiles which should keep you comfortably away from stalling the airplane, and comfortably away from the shaker. If you don't have the opportunity to do stupid things in airplanes, and scare yourself, or have conditions (and your bad/inexperienced judgment) create situations which are taxing and dangerous, then you will never learn to fly well enough to save your ass when you really need to.
 
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