Need Help Making a Big Decision

One last question i have is does anyone recommend buying any books before starting PPL training? I would like to get a head start on studying before beginning training but I honestly just don't know if study material would be included in the cost of the program.

Apologies for all the questions tonight. Coming from a family where everyone works an 8-5 job, i personally don't know anyone in the aviation industry i can ask for advice.
 
future pilot said:
Greetings all,

For starters I just want to apologize in advance if I have placed this in the wrong forum topic. I couldn’t think of what else it could be under so I placed it here.

It has been quite some time since I have been active on this forum. The last time I was active was actually while I was in high school. Five years later, I am 23 years old preparing to graduate college with a bachelors degree in business. With graduation approaching very quickly I have been putting a considerable amount of thought into what I want to do with my future. As it stands now, I have a job with a large corporation that I interned with over the summer waiting for me after I graduate. While most people would be very happy and excited at the thought of a guaranteed job after graduation, I find that it brings more stress. Something that I have realized in recent months, is I just cannot seem to shake the aviation bug. Being an airline pilot is the only thing I have ever actually seen myself doing for a career. As of now I am strongly considering chasing this lifelong dream of mine, however I am having trouble justifying trading in my degree in business, and a job that I know that I have for alot of money spent on flight training and a few more years of making little to no money.

So here comes the main point of this tread. I have begun looking (Again) at flight schools around the country where it could be feasible to get my training and I would greatly appreciate your advice on which routes I could go down. I am from St. Louis and will be moving back in three months after graduation. ATP has really stuck out to me, with their career fast track that caters to people that are intent on becoming airline pilots. What are your thoughts on ATP? Does anyone know of a reputable flight school in the St. Louis area? Also, in your opinion is the airline industry stable enough that airlines will still be hiring in two years, or however long it takes me to complete my flight training and meet the 1500-hour mark? And finally, I know that ATP promotes a zero time to airline pilot in two years, but realistically, how much time could I expect it to take before I have a chance at the right seat of a regional if I choose to go this route?
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There are 1000 things you have to do, in order, to become an airline pilot. You are on #1.

1. Graduate
2. Start your new job
3. Work hard. Learn the business. Do well. Prove yourself. (Might take a couple years)
4. Live Lean. Save money. (Concurrent with #3)
5. Go to an aviation medical examiner and see if you qualify for a First Class Medical.
6. Use your free time to start studying to learn and pass your written exams.
7. Once you've established yourself in your job, then start thinking about flying lessons
8. Find a local FBO/Flight School.
9. Focus on one certificate and rating at a time. Don't be thinking about ATP while your working on your PPL.
10. Pay as you go. AVOID DEBT!!!
11. Repeat #9 until you have Commercial-Instrument, Multiengine & Flight Instructor-Instrument Multiengine
12. Starve for a year or two while you work as a Flight instructor/charter pilot/whatever-you-need-to-do-to-get-to-1500 hours (Good thing you were saving that $ back on #4)
13. Avoid dating/relationships/girlfriends/boyfriends/etc until you have established yourself in your pilot career. This will save you $, frustration, & heartache.
14. Become airline pilot

Ok, so it's only 14 things you have to do. But the point is, be smart, be patient, and avoid debt. Do not do the all-in-hail-mary-pass to become a pilot. Airlines will still be here in a few years, and you'll be in a much better position to pursue opportunities.
 
future pilot said:
One last question i have is does anyone recommend buying any books before starting PPL training? I would like to get a head start on studying before beginning training but I honestly just don't know if study material would be included in the cost of the program.

Apologies for all the questions tonight. Coming from a family where everyone works an 8-5 job, i personally don't know anyone in the aviation industry i can ask for advice.
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Sounds like you have a good plan. I did my private part 61 and the rest of my training part 141. (Besides CFI) I really enjoyed it that way. You'll save more doing 61 probably.

Most of the FAA publication books you can get free PDF's on the FAA website. I'd do that for now. That's going to save you a lot of money. If you have a tablet, download them on there. Look at investing into ForeFlight if you have an iPad, then you can download them that way. I'd avoid those Jeppesen kits (I have the private one) because they'll cost you a couple hundred, when really you could just use the FAA documents and Internet for just as good of knowledge. (My personal opinion)

I have probably over $600-800 in aviation books in my shelf at home (granted some I needed for my college classes that were a little above the knowledge you need for a pilot) but sometimes I regret spending so much on them.

I'm a book guy though, I like the hard copy and not the PDF but in reality when I was instructing I rarely brought the book with me to work. It was so much more convenient to carry my ipad and for my students time to look stuff up on my ipad PDF files. Same goes for the FAR/AIM. Saved so much time.

Again, my opinion. Might not seem like a lot of money but you're going to have a lot of training and books at each stop just rack up $$$$ especially when you can get it for free.
 
future pilot said:
One last question i have is does anyone recommend buying any books before starting PPL training? I would like to get a head start on studying before beginning training but I honestly just don't know if study material would be included in the cost of the program.
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Nearly everything you need is in PDF on the FAA's website, free. When you are done with that (Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge, FAR/AIM, Airplane flying handbook, etc), ask about other books. Also, the FAA / Wings courses are free and generally very good.
 
Regarding debt: it's not the monster everyone makes it out to be, but it is a formidable beast that, not respected, will take you down. The advantage with ATP is you already know the whole price tag going in and aren't continually borrowing more and more as you go. Further, if you go with Sallie Mae as your lender, you will likely not have to start repayments until six months after program completion. Other schools and FBOs may have financing options as well that may be more or less advantageous in your situation. Regardless of where you go or which lender you choose, the repayments are no joke and will result in a lot of sacrifices being made. Pay as you go if you can. Nevertheless, learn to love ramen noodles. Also, as a former co-worker used to tell his police cadets, "Embrace the suck."

As for study materials, the free FAA PDFs are a great idea. For PPL Ground materials, the FBO/School may have a preferred curriculum, but if not, take a look at Sporty's and King Schools products. I used a version of the King stuff getting my PPL and enjoyed it. I'm currently using Sporty's Instrument course and don't like it as much, but it isn't bad. Also check out a website called Boldmethod. Lots of educational aviation stuff there.
 
ShyFlyer said:
Regarding debt: it's not the monster everyone makes it out to be, but it is a formidable beast that, not respected, will take you down. The advantage with ATP is you already know the whole price tag going in and aren't continually borrowing more and more as you go. Further, if you go with Sallie Mae as your lender, you will likely not have to start repayments until six months after program completion. Other schools and FBOs may have financing options as well that may be more or less advantageous in your situation. Regardless of where you go or which lender you choose, the repayments are no joke and will result in a lot of sacrifices being made. Pay as you go if you can. Nevertheless, learn to love ramen noodles. Also, as a former co-worker used to tell his police cadets, "Embrace the suck."

As for study materials, the free FAA PDFs are a great idea. For PPL Ground materials, the FBO/School may have a preferred curriculum, but if not, take a look at Sporty's and King Schools products. I used a version of the King stuff getting my PPL and enjoyed it. I'm currently using Sporty's Instrument course and don't like it as much, but it isn't bad. Also check out a website called Boldmethod. Lots of educational aviation stuff there.
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Yeah...gotta do what you gotta do. Try and find the smallest interest rate. I've heard of some people doing credit cards. Obviously, the federal loans are out of the question since training isn't being done at a institution.

Forgot about Boldmethod. My favorite website as a CFI.
 
tcco94 said:
I've heard of some people doing credit cards.
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Credit Cards are doable, but unless one has outstanding credit and significant income, the interest rate and credit limit will suck. I'd say steer clear unless one is able to pay at least twice the minimum payment.


One thing I forgot to mention is that ATP will likely be the most expensive option. If you decide on another school for training beyond PPL, use ATPs prices to set your budget. Use that "$900 per month loan repayment for 15 years" figure to help you set financial priorities. If you get better terms (very likely) then you'll be setting yourself up to repay any loans quicker. You'll also be acclimated to the pay typical of low-time entry level jobs in the industry as well.
 
tcco94 said:
Sounds like you have a good plan. I did my private part 61 and the rest of my training part 141. (Besides CFI) I really enjoyed it that way. You'll save more doing 61 probably.

Most of the FAA publication books you can get free PDF's on the FAA website. I'd do that for now. That's going to save you a lot of money. If you have a tablet, download them on there. Look at investing into ForeFlight if you have an iPad, then you can download them that way. I'd avoid those Jeppesen kits (I have the private one) because they'll cost you a couple hundred, when really you could just use the FAA documents and Internet for just as good of knowledge. (My personal opinion)

I have probably over $600-800 in aviation books in my shelf at home (granted some I needed for my college classes that were a little above the knowledge you need for a pilot) but sometimes I regret spending so much on them.

I'm a book guy though, I like the hard copy and not the PDF but in reality when I was instructing I rarely brought the book with me to work. It was so much more convenient to carry my ipad and for my students time to look stuff up on my ipad PDF files. Same goes for the FAR/AIM. Saved so much time.

Again, my opinion. Might not seem like a lot of money but you're going to have a lot of training and books at each stop just rack up $$$$ especially when you can get it for free.
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Definitely sounds like i need to invest in an iPad then! I prefer physical copies of books as well just because at my job i stare at a computer screen for 8 hours a day, i prefer not to do the same when i am at home.

tcco94 said:
Yeah...gotta do what you gotta do. Try and find the smallest interest rate. I've heard of some people doing credit cards. Obviously, the federal loans are out of the question since training isn't being done at a institution.

Forgot about Boldmethod. My favorite website as a CFI.
Click to expand...
I've come to terms with the fact that I am going to get into debt for my flight training. I am hoping that my grandfather who has very good credit, co-signing on the loan will lower the interest rate at least a little bit.
 
Sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders. Planning is good.....but, be very flexible! You're young and have plenty of time to make it in aviation. You have a 4 year degree (without debt) which will improve your odds and gives you a leg up already. My daughter just graduated from U of Louisville last weekend and she asked me (in jest) what I'm getting her for graduation? I said I already gave it to her...a FREE college education with no debt. She won't truly appreciate that until she is out on her own and paying one less BIG loan payment that her friends are paying. BTW...she gets married in July so she'll also be off my payroll...so daddy is getting a raise! :D

Anyway, aviation is expensive! Also, there are NO guarantees after spending all that money with the volatility of aviation. Sorry to say, that's just the way it is. You'll always be one FAA medical exam, terrorist attack, failed checkride or company furlough away from unemployment and starting over. That's the part these "zero to hero" flight schools don't or won't tell you about. I will, since my advice is free and I have no dog in the fight.

The upside is that airlines worldwide are in a huge pilot retirement/expansion phase which isn't being back filled at a sustainable rate. The reasons why can be argued, but basically there are fewer military pilots, fewer folks getting into civilian aviation because of the expense and general overall lack of interest. All this combined with many airlines around the world expanding their service and fleets has created a true world wide pilot shortage. It's better than I've ever seen it and is affecting even the majors.

It's a great time to look for a pilot job. Time is on your side...for now. Don't waste a second if it's what you really want to do. Understand there will be many ups and downs along the way...it's normal, it's called "Life". You'll question your sanity at times (I did) and there will be times when you'll want to find an easier road (I did). If you hang in there and grind away (USAir Capt gave me that advice back in the day) it'll be worth it and you'll look back at hopefully a long career and be proud of what you accomplished. Doors will open when you least expect it (they did for me).

The best piece of advice I can give someone starting out in aviation (or any career field for that matter) which was given to me but I really didn't listen, is to enjoy the journey and not focus so much on the destination or the end game. The days and months can be long but the years fly by in a flash. Looking back some of my favorite moments in my career were back in my commuter flying days making squat money, eating soup and flying in the soup and truly "livin' the dream". I spent too much time focusing on the next rung in the ladder to enjoy or appreciate it then. 4 years from retirement and I wish I had spent more time enjoying the moments along the way and not waste so much time worrying about the future (the end game). It'll all work out if it is meant to be.

Good luck...
 
You’re getting in at a much better time than some of the guys did a few years ago. It sounds like some of the regionals are actually paying a livable wage now that the pilot supply is in the tank and the big four is into the near six figures with a couple years of service.

I’ll never advise for getting into debt, but with current salaries and living in a dual income household, paying off loans should be manageable for you.
 
A300Capt said:
Sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders. Planning is good.....but, be very flexible! You're young and have plenty of time to make it in aviation. You have a 4 year degree (without debt) which will improve your odds and gives you a leg up already. My daughter just graduated from U of Louisville last weekend and she asked me (in jest) what I'm getting her for graduation? I said I already gave it to her...a FREE college education with no debt. She won't truly appreciate that until she is out on her own and paying one less BIG loan payment that her friends are paying. BTW...she gets married in July so she'll also be off my payroll...so daddy is getting a raise! :D

Anyway, aviation is expensive! Also, there are NO guarantees after spending all that money with the volatility of aviation. Sorry to say, that's just the way it is. You'll always be one FAA medical exam, terrorist attack, failed checkride or company furlough away from unemployment and starting over. That's the part these "zero to hero" flight schools don't or won't tell you about. I will, since my advice is free and I have no dog in the fight.

The upside is that airlines worldwide are in a huge pilot retirement/expansion phase which isn't being back filled at a sustainable rate. The reasons why can be argued, but basically there are fewer military pilots, fewer folks getting into civilian aviation because of the expense and general overall lack of interest. All this combined with many airlines around the world expanding their service and fleets has created a true world wide pilot shortage. It's better than I've ever seen it and is affecting even the majors.

It's a great time to look for a pilot job. Time is on your side...for now. Don't waste a second if it's what you really want to do. Understand there will be many ups and downs along the way...it's normal, it's called "Life". You'll question your sanity at times (I did) and there will be times when you'll want to find an easier road (I did). If you hang in there and grind away (USAir Capt gave me that advice back in the day) it'll be worth it and you'll look back at hopefully a long career and be proud of what you accomplished. Doors will open when you least expect it (they did for me).

The best piece of advice I can give someone starting out in aviation (or any career field for that matter) which was given to me but I really didn't listen, is to enjoy the journey and not focus so much on the destination or the end game. The days and months can be long but the years fly by in a flash. Looking back some of my favorite moments in my career were back in my commuter flying days making squat money, eating soup and flying in the soup and truly "livin' the dream". I spent too much time focusing on the next rung in the ladder to enjoy or appreciate it then. 4 years from retirement and I wish I had spent more time enjoying the moments along the way and not waste so much time worrying about the future (the end game). It'll all work out if it is meant to be.

Good luck...
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Thank you for the write up. I've always known that failing a medical exam can end your career in a heartbeat (No pun intended) but how often do you actually see this? I have always been in good health but i know that could change tomorrow.
 
future pilot said:
Thank you for the write up. I've always known that failing a medical exam can end your career in a heartbeat (No pun intended) but how often do you actually see this? I have always been in good health but i know that could change tomorrow.
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I don't have statistics on the number of folks that can no longer hold a medical but I've know quite a few over the years that lost that ability. And, what may be a relative non event in any other career field can knock you out of the cockpit for good. We're all in good health until we're not. Just something to consider...
 
Hey guys, sorry if i am sounding repetitive here but i've got another question for you all. The previous flight school that i talked about getting my PPL with doesn't seem like its going to work out as the main person i was talking to canceled our initial meeting and won't respond to my emails. I am going to check out a flight school on Saturday that is having an open house to celebrate them opening up shop recently. From what i can tell it looks like a good school. The question i have is: they are going to be having special offers on flight packages. Since i am not very familiar with pricing and such, what is typically a good price range per hour for your PPL?

Heres the website for the school, its still under construction and there isn't any pricing but just in case anyone wanted to check it out.
https://www.eliteaviation-spirit.com

Thanks!
 
I found a school that has these for the quoted prices: Cessna 152: $105/HR Cessna 172: $140/HR. Plus about $50 per hour of ground instruction. Do you all think these prices are too good to be true or pretty in line? Obviously it varies per person but he quoted me $6,000-$9,000 for the PPL.
http://www.stlflight.com/index.html
 
The rates for the CFI seem to be about average. The 152 rate seems very high. The club to which I belong charges between $80 ~ 90/hr. I'm curious about their 172, as that price is in line with what my club charges for a late model 172S w/G1000 avionics.
 
ShyFlyer said:
The rates for the CFI seem to be about average. The 152 rate seems very high. The club to which I belong charges between $80 ~ 90/hr. I'm curious about their 172, as that price is in line with what my club charges for a late model 172S w/G1000 avionics.
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They did say that the price includes fuel as well as there is no sales tax. Im not sure if that makes a difference or not.
 
I had been flying freight and lost interest in flying, so logically I bought a Piper Cherokee and don't fly it. It does have loan value, cause I borrowed against it to cover a balloon note on real estate ripoff. I got that paid half off and refinanced last month for some remodeling on my home.
The real value would be someone learning and building hours to rack up flight hours and sell it to recoup some of their expenses.
 
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