near-collision of a US Airways jet

canadian_atc said:
Your ignorance is astounding.

When ATC gives you an instruction you are expected to comply as soon as safely able... Don't feed me about 1500 feet being safe. Many large airports order pilots to turn immediately on take off for succeeding departures... And those pilots initiate the turn within 100-200 feet AGL and I'm talking Q400s and the like... Toronto Pearson is a great example of this, and I'm sure many airports in the states.

If the pilots was instructed to turn on departure and knew they would not be able to safely do that until Xx altitude then they are REQUIRED to inform ATC before accepting/reading back the clearance.

Oh and another thing, I dont appreciate the attitude that we controllers just sit around sipping coffee and not caring. I can damn sure assure you that controller has had the crappiest time since this incident, they include nightmares, no sleeping, being "that guy" at work even if it isn't his fault.

You're correct that if we make a yard sale somewhere we don't die directly as a result... However we do have to try to live with ourselves forever with that horrible guilt.

Have some respect, considering how many movements a controller has in their career mistakes will eventually happen, unless it was negligent your tone of "text" is uncalled for.
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I can certainly understand your point CanadianATC. Maybe the fact that he made that comment in a thread pertaining to a situation where people could have died was uncalled for but, at the same time I don't think he was being serious.

I am sure that you make fun of pilots with your fellow controllers in the breakroom talking about a particular idiot pilot or pilots. Or another experience you had... In aviation we all hate each other, but its all in good fun.

Pilots have an expression
If ATC screws up: Pilot dies
If Mechanics screw up: Pilot dies
If Pilot screws up: Pilot dies
looks like we are screwed either way.

In all seriousness though, its all in good fun. Just a way to relieve the stress of the job.



P.S. read my post above. In many companies op specs we are not allowed to turn before a 400AGL or 1000AGL unless we are on a published departure procedure
 
Appreciate the comments...

I of course appreciate the uniqueness of flying for a living, I made an attempt at it years back myself... And still fly quite regularly in a heavily congested VFR control zone, so I understand how as a pilot ATC can seem oblivious.
 
Nick said:
Landing 12L/R
Departing 12L/R and 17
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2 months ago when I was there, they were doing what I quoted but also had some airplanes taking off on 4 with all that other stuff going on. Looked pretty hectic. Never seen that before.
 
One thing that is not mention in the article, is tower was also controlling ground on that side of the airport ( Overload work ? ). After the 99 T/O, the controller issue 5 differents ground instruction, and a gave partially progressive taxi to an heavy who was confused taking his attention away from the airborne A/C.
The 99 was instructed to turn left 180 on his take off clearance, he did not. why ? did not understand clearance ? ( his readback is unreadable ) Did he forgot to make the turn ? Don't know.
But the controller being busy with ground, lost track of him and did not realised that he did not turn. Do I blame the controller, no. I blame the people who put him in this situation, MSP is a busy airport even at 0650 am. Proper staffing is a must.


I would like to comment on when to make a turn, I agree with one of the poster: when do you make the turn ? when ATC expect you to make a turn? It is not all black and white as like as one of the poster replied. Actually is a big question at my company as we speak.

I fly ATR and at busy airport a lot of time we are asked to make an early turn out below our acceleration altitude. Acc altitude for our A/C is based on maintening rwy centerline unless specifically mention otherwise, any turn prior to that and obstacle clearance if you lose an engine is out of the window. MSP 30L/R have obstcale DP as well as Single Engine DP for my A/C.
ATC has MVA so if ask to turn below the altitude on the DP and or your airport analysis you " should " be free of obstacle ( this is one of the argument to accept an early turn out). ATC does not know our acc alt and what kind of performance we are capable on Single Engine. So turning prior reaching Acc Alt could be a big no no in some case.
 
JEP said:
I wonder though how much time was in between the two takeoff's. For them to come within 50 ft, the smaller prop plane had to have taken off a bit sooner than the A320.

Now of course if it were VFR, then it would have been a non-issue as they 'should' have seen each other.

I know the RW's have different freq's, but would the planes have the other freq on and listening?
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Nope... #1 is on TWR Freq and #2 is on guard.
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
Why don't they release the name of the FAA controller who screwed up and parade him or her around on the news like they do to pilots when this happens? Heck, usually the headline says "Pilot makes error and almost kills XXX people"
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They don't show up at their house, either.

It appears ATC is telling the news that the Bemidji pilot didn't turn when instructed.
 
Reckless cowboy freightdog! On hour 12 of a 14 hour duty day, no autopilot, no gearswinger, just a big gulp of coffee and a couple of CDIs. Hang him high, for the CHILDREN. I figure they've got that poor sucker's neck measurements by now and the noose is under construction. There but for the grace of God, etc. And yeah, big kudos to the Sky Gods for looking up from the Sudoku long enough to do what the computer told them to do. Heroes!
 
Boris Badenov said:
Reckless cowboy freightdog! On hour 12 of a 14 hour duty day, no autopilot, no gearswinger, just a big gulp of coffee and a couple of CDIs. Hang him high, for the CHILDREN. I figure they've got that poor sucker's neck measurements by now and the noose is under construction. There but for the grace of God, etc. And yeah, big kudos to the Sky Gods for looking up from the Sudoku long enough to do what the computer told them to do. Heroes!
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what computer are you talking about? there is no computer that tells a controller what to do, and what you said is so unfair and untrue but thanks for insulting the whole controller work force.and ill tell you what pal ive saved more pilots asses in my 29 years than i could count on a hundred hands.
 
LoadMasterC141 said:
Why don't they release the name of the FAA controller who screwed up and parade him or her around on the news like they do to pilots when this happens? Heck, usually the headline says "Pilot makes error and almost kills XXX people"
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Who releases the names of the pilots?
 
queeno said:
what computer are you talking about? there is no computer that tells a controller what to do, and what you said is so unfair and untrue but thanks for insulting the whole controller work force.
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Slow your roll.

He was talking about the crew of the Airbus that followed the TCAS instructions.
The jetliner had an automated system that instructed the pilots to climb to avoid a crash, and they did.
...
Schwieterman said the automated warning system on the Airbus likely averted a disaster, supporting advocates who want the crash avoidance technology in all planes.

"Technology might have saved us from a cataclysmic outcome," Schwieterman said.
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Everybody needs to remember that we're all on the same team. It's not pilots versus controllers.
 
SteveC said:
Slow your roll.

He was talking about the crew of the Airbus that followed the TCAS instructions.


Everybody needs to remember that we're all on the same team. It's not pilots versus controllers.
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sorry boris, the Sudoku thing threw me most controller cant spell worth sheet.

OG
 
SteveC said:
Slow your roll.

He was talking about the crew of the Airbus that followed the TCAS instructions.


Everybody needs to remember that we're all on the same team. It's not pilots versus controllers.
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Yeah that.

I am going to reserve judgement. I am sure more than one mistake was made here, by who is yet to be seen. Let's be grateful no one was even injured for now. (Minus the inevitable PTSD lawsuits from completely unaware passengers who see $$$$$ in their future)

Truth is this will probably end up being a split blame situation. Phraseology will be scrutinized, read-backs will be micro-analyzed and blame will be assigned at some bureaucrats whim.

Bottom-line is no one was killed and I am happy for that.
 
fholbert said:
Why was he on guard?
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Because in general a lot of 121 crews monitor guard on COM 2. That said, I doubt they would be doing that during take off though. I normally have COM 2 set to Ops (although I don't actually have the radio selected so I can hear it) and then switch over to guard through 10,000.
 
When I flew out of a parallel runway airport in the 99, Comm 1 was tower and comm 2 was company. For us it wasn't a usual practice to monitor the other tower...
 
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