NDB approaches/holds

Basically, with the NDB, all you need to know is that the needle always points to the station, and that the head of the needle always falls. If you remember that you should be good.

But seriously, I sometimes like to ignore the numbers on the fixed card because it can be kind of cluttered when you're trying to do public math in flight and think about this: where is the station relative to me right now?

So let's say that the needle is saying that the station is at 3 o'clock, and my heading is 276, well, then the mag bearing to the station is 006. Do this for awhile in the airplane, or with one of the air nav simulators, and you'll be fine. The problem with NDBs is that you can't just interpret the instruments and make them do what you please like an ILS or a VOR, with an NDB Approach, or Hold you have to visualize where you're at and what you're doing before you can make corrections because the instrument only gives the most basic of information, and to fly an airways you have to do a little bit of mental gymnastics. Trust me, I didn't truly get NDBs until I flew an airplane equipped with RMI, its not too hard, just make sure you think about where you are in relation to the station rather than trying add and subtract at altitude.
 
Did anyone honestly have to do one on their IFR checkride? I'm in SoCal and i dont even know where i'd be able to find one of these dinosaurs.
 
Pachong said:
Did anyone honestly have to do one on their IFR checkride? I'm in SoCal and i dont even know where i'd be able to find one of these dinosaurs.
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I did one on my instrument ride, and in several interviews. I did my instrument ride about 5 years ago I think.
 
All of our students had to be able to do the approach because they could get an airplane w/ an RMI on the checkride.
 
Pachong said:
Did anyone honestly have to do one on their IFR checkride? I'm in SoCal and i dont even know where i'd be able to find one of these dinosaurs.
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Last one I flew was on my instrument check ride 8 years ago. I can't even find a plane equipped for an NDB approach anymore.
 
We fly them all the time up here in the sticks. And I did/do them on 135 rides... we have to fly a loooong way to find an ILS.

Get the needle to point at the nose of the airplane (ie- headed to the station) then make the heading match the number on the chart. If the needle drifts its no biggie, just apply a correction angle and see what happens. Adjust from there.

Long story short- keep the needle on the nose (or tail, as the case my be) and make the heading of the airplane match whats on the chart (less wind corections).
 
Pachong said:
Did anyone honestly have to do one on their IFR checkride? I'm in SoCal and i dont even know where i'd be able to find one of these dinosaurs.
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haha. True, ya might not find one.
I did one my checkrid in '03, eight years ago. But I was in the midwest and we still have a loooot of them. It wasn't until '07 that my GPS approaches out weighed my NDB approaches.
 
I used to teach NDB's up here in seattle all the time. Nothing beats flying an NDB approach to a non-towered airport, with simulated gyro failure, in solid IMC. It's great.

Tell your instructor to draw you a depiction of what he is talking about on a piece of paper. I have a feeling this may clear up what he's talking about. This is what I used to do for my students and I swear I could see the lightbulb immediately brighten.
 
Ayork, I'll give some possibly unpopular advice...don't learn NDBs. Switch aircraft and take your checkride in a plane that isn't equipped with an ADF. Problem solved.

Now, here are the downsides to my advice. NDBs/ADFs are important concepts that *will* make you a better instrument pilot. They're still used in professional aviation, so eventually you'll need to learn this stuff if you plan to make a career out of flying.

However, in the near term, it's not going to hurt you to skip NDB approaches. There are very few real world scenarios in the continental United States where a pilot MUST shoot an NDB approach to make it in to an airport under IFR. You can be a safe, competent instrument rated pilot without knowing a thing about NDBs. Get the rating, build some experience, learn the NDB stuff later.

It sounds like time, and particularly money, are working against you. In my opinion, learning NDB approaches are not worth the, say, 5 hours of aircraft time and 6 or 8 hours of instructor time it will probably take to become proficient with them. Spend your money on prepping for the checkride and learning how to rock an ILS, LOC, VOR, or GPS approach. Those skills will serve you better as a new instrument pilot.

Also, for what it's worth, I'd say to finish your rating with your current instructor, but for goodness sakes, don't use him in the future. Too many questionable things you've mentioned about him on here.
 
on my check ride i did a partial panel NDB approach using a local radio station due to the NDB at the airport being out of service.and some how i passed.
 
Ayork62493 said:
Here;s what my instructor says...
Make the angles equal, he never really told me what that even means. I just attempt to correct it in the air, and he just rambles about headings and angles while we're flying.
It's just one giant faceplam.

I should have been more specific, how do deal with wind corrections with NDB's.. I know how with everything else, and I would think it's the same with an NDB. But he says it's completely different?
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Say you want to track the 360 bearing from the station, wind is comming from the east, You have to apply wind correction. If you apply a 10º wind correction to the right (fly heading 010) then the neddle should show RB = 170º (fixed card) when flying the 360 bearing from station. Thats a 10º difference from the 180º you should see the needle point at on a no wind condition tracking the 360 bearing and flying on a 360 heading.

I guess thats what your CFI ment

I actually like ADF/NDBs more than the VOR, I mean, once you are profficient enough, the thing is like having an RMI, constantly telling you "what radial" you are in, and you dont have to touch anything! no OBS, or reverse sensing crap. The biggest downside is having to track with wind correction. Gets confusing.
 
queeno said:
on my check ride i did a partial panel NDB approach using a local radio station due to the NDB at the airport being out of service.and some how i passed.
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:drool: Wow

The examiner here makes all the partial panel approaches in aircraft with an IFR GPS RNAV (LNAV, no vertical guidance) approaches on his checkrides. IMO, under simulated conditions, a partial panel GPS appoach is not really much harder than a full panel GPS approach.
 
"on my check ride i did a partial panel NDB approach using a local radio station due to the NDB at the airport being out of service.and some how i passed."

Same concept except you're not over an airport. I used to have students fly to the kitsap NDB and practice the KPWT approach there at altitude if the airport was busy.
 
jrh said:
Ayork, I'll give some possibly unpopular advice...don't learn NDBs. Switch aircraft and take your checkride in a plane that isn't equipped with an ADF. Problem solved.

Now, here are the downsides to my advice. NDBs/ADFs are important concepts that *will* make you a better instrument pilot. They're still used in professional aviation, so eventually you'll need to learn this stuff if you plan to make a career out of flying.

However, in the near term, it's not going to hurt you to skip NDB approaches. There are very few real world scenarios in the continental United States where a pilot MUST shoot an NDB approach to make it in to an airport under IFR. You can be a safe, competent instrument rated pilot without knowing a thing about NDBs. Get the rating, build some experience, learn the NDB stuff later.

It sounds like time, and particularly money, are working against you. In my opinion, learning NDB approaches are not worth the, say, 5 hours of aircraft time and 6 or 8 hours of instructor time it will probably take to become proficient with them. Spend your money on prepping for the checkride and learning how to rock an ILS, LOC, VOR, or GPS approach. Those skills will serve you better as a new instrument pilot.

Also, for what it's worth, I'd say to finish your rating with your current instructor, but for goodness sakes, don't use him in the future. Too many questionable things you've mentioned about him on here.
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I totally disagree w/ this. Especially in the area he's at NDB approaches are a reality. I know our pilot's only have the NDB approach to get into some of our outstations. I didn't learn how to use an ADF/RMI until I was a CFI and wish I had the option to learn it earlier. Just didn't have a plane with a non-INOP ADF in it. If you have an airport and a plane to practice with, definitely learn it otherwise it will fall to the wayside. Learn to fly the airplane like a competent pilot instead of worrying about passing a checkride, it will help you in the long run.
 
jhugz said:
I totally disagree w/ this. Especially in the area he's at NDB approaches are a reality. I know our pilot's only have the NDB approach to get into some of our outstations. I didn't learn how to use an ADF/RMI until I was a CFI and wish I had the option to learn it earlier. Just didn't have a plane with a non-INOP ADF in it. If you have an airport and a plane to practice with, definitely learn it otherwise it will fall to the wayside. Learn to fly the airplane like a competent pilot instead of worrying about passing a checkride, it will help you in the long run.
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I think it depends where you live...In my area, we would have to fly 100+ NM just to get to an airport with an NDB approach and the plane I fly has an inop ADF. I think NDB approaches without GPS overlay are becoming obselete in the US unless you live in AK or a few other remote states where VORs are few and far beetween...Would knowing how to do one make one a more proficient pilot? Sure. Is there a pressing need to know how to do them? Not so sure.
 
A150K said:
I think it depends where you live...In my area, we would have to fly 100+ NM just to get to an airport with an NDB approach and the plane I fly has an inop ADF. I think NDB approaches without GPS overlay are becoming obselete in the US unless you live in AK or a few other remote states where VORs are few and far beetween...Would knowing how to do one make one a more proficient pilot? Sure. Is there a pressing need to know how to do them? Not so sure.
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When you were still a youngin, there used to be an NDB 35 at KABQ I used to often fly as a freight dog.
 
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