National Seniority list

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
It's never take these rates for growth, it's accept these rates or we'll shrink and you'll be out of a job.

Nah, management will try it the nice way first. Then, if they don't get enough suckers, they pull a TSA/GoJets.
 

SpiceWeasel

Tre Kronor
Nah, management will try it the nice way first. Then, if they don't get enough suckers, they pull a TSA/GoJets.
I must not have been at 9E long enough to hear the "we'll get jets" speech because all I've heard is that we pilots are trying to destroy the company by asking for wages that don't require me to stand in line with the entitlement folk.
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
I must not have been at 9E long enough to hear the "we'll get jets" speech because all I've heard is that we pilots are trying to destroy the company by asking for wages that don't require me to stand in line with the entitlement folk.
You weren't here for the "sign this and we'll get BIGGER jets and more flying" speech? That was just in 2006. About a week after that fell through, then the "We're gonna lose the NWA flying if you don't sign this" rhetoric started.
 

SpiceWeasel

Tre Kronor
You weren't here for the "sign this and we'll get BIGGER jets and more flying" speech? That was just in 2006. About a week after that fell through, then the "We're gonna lose the NWA flying if you don't sign this" rhetoric started.
Nope I'm pretty new. Just passed my company prob date in October. :hiya:

Someone said that it's the date that passes afterwhich you can go into the Chief Pilots office and sweep all the stuff off their desk and still keep your job. lol. I think that's pretty false.
 

skydog

New Member
Huh?


HUH?

So you are insisting our pay never goes up? Or we start off at the top of the pay scale for every one? That isn't the point of the discussion and it really doesn't make any sense? Like any management would ever sign off on a contract that have every one peaked on the payscale. Thats insane. If you lower the payscale with what you are suggesting then you are hurting the guys at the peak who have earned it.

National Longevity makes sense from the stand point that if you pay dues to your union for X amount of years and then go to the bottom of another carrier for reasons beyond your control the union helps get you better pay to start over, but you go to the bottom of the senority list. You picked your pony and she broke down why should some one else move back at their company for you?
Air Wisconsin lost its United flying because of its inability to compete with the other bidders. Our payrates were higher than average, but that in and of itself is not why we lost the UAL contract. We lost it because every other bidder could leverage the advantages of incremental growth. What they means is that, if awarded the contract, all the other carriers could hire a bunch of pilots at the bottom of their respective pay scales. While we had second and third year FO's and Third year plus Captain's, earning $35-$40, and $60-$100 an hour respectively, our competitors could go out and hire $20 an hour FO's and upgrade $55-$60 an hour captains. Do you see the huge cost advantages that our competitors had? There was no way we could ever compete with that. We never had a chance at that bid.

A single pay rate eliminates that. If every pilot is paid at a given rate per aircraft and seat, it eliminates the marginal growth advantage of shifting flying to new-entrant carrier from an incumbent carrier.

I am not suggesting that every one starts at the top nor the bottom of the scale. Look at a typical regional airline payscale. The top end of the Captain scale is something like 50% higher than the bottom end. A top Captain can make almost twice what a junior Captain does, on the same equipment. This is effectively a built in B-scale. You don't see that in the mainline payscales. You see marginal increases, but a top captain and a junior captain make within 10% (or less) of each other

What I envision is taking the pay scale and knocking off both the top and bottom ends and getting a payrate somewhere in the middle. If this is applied to a typical regional 15 year scale starting in the $55-60 and topping out at $90-95, what you end up with is a rate of $70-80 (for discusion purposes, say $75 for Captains and $45 for FO's). There would still be raises, but they would be a function of the cost of living adjustments built into the contract (Date of Signing, DOS+1, DOS+2, etc).

As I see it, this benefits almost everybody in the regional profession. It raises the salaries of most current and short and medium term Captain's and FO's. Long term FO's salaries will not be affected either way as current pay scales tend to top out at the $45 range. Unfortunately it will hurt the long-term regional Captains. I don't see a way around that, except to perhaps negotiate some type of interim deal to mitigate the effects of a salary cut. This also benefits management, in that they don't have to worry about losing the flying contract to a lower cost competitor. The other benefit for pilots is, in the even of a job change, the financial hit will not be so extreme, although there will still be one. Also, by limiting the upper salary, an incentive to move up the career ladder is created.

Hope that explains it better.
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Evil Landlord Capitalist
I've heard some truly horrible ideas, but this one really takes the cake. Worry about whatever profession it is that you're in now and leave the air line pilot profession to us. :rolleyes:
 

jynxyjoe

Queso King
I didn't think Skydogs idea was THAT bad. Helps whipsawing on the regional level with the same union. Some people think thats why we (Mesaba) got all the 900's and not Comair, who was supposedly promised them.

Instead of knocking off the top level and bottom level, knock out the middle and the low level and just keep the high end level.
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
I've heard some truly horrible ideas, but this one really takes the cake. Worry about whatever profession it is that you're in now and leave the air line pilot profession to us. :rolleyes:
Might help some of the less "in-the-know" readers if you would elaborate just a tad. :)
 

FLguy

Well-Known Member
I've heard some truly horrible ideas, but this one really takes the cake. Worry about whatever profession it is that you're in now and leave the air line pilot profession to us. :rolleyes:
Yeah and a National Seniority list is totally feasible. :rolleyes: At least he's thinking outside the box. Putting our heads in the sand and wishing for a return of the good ol days or peddling ideas that are about 50 years too late is not the solution either.
 

skydog

New Member
I've heard some truly horrible ideas, but this one really takes the cake. Worry about whatever profession it is that you're in now and leave the air line pilot profession to us. :rolleyes:

I'm telling you why we lost or contract at Air Wisconsin, and a way I think it can be prevented in the future. You're always quick with the "that's a bad idea" and "that won't work," but you never get around to explaining why. Nor do you offer an alternative solution. A change in bargaining strategy might work better than sitting around calling for unity and hoping that the other guy will do something to raise the bar.
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Evil Landlord Capitalist
Might help some of the less "in-the-know" readers if you would elaborate just a tad. :)
If it were someone else posting the idea, then I would have, but this Skydog guy is getting on my nerves.

Yeah and a National Seniority list is totally feasible.
You're correct, it's probably not. I thought the UAL MEC was really reaching when they decided to push this idea. I think it's largely a waste of time.

I'm telling you why we lost or contract at Air Wisconsin, and a way I think it can be prevented in the future. You're always quick with the "that's a bad idea" and "that won't work," but you never get around to explaining why. Nor do you offer an alternative solution. A change in bargaining strategy might work better than sitting around calling for unity and hoping that the other guy will do something to raise the bar.
Fine, I'll bite. There are several reasons that this is a bad idea:

1. Everyone over the "mid-point" seniority level will get completely screwed under your plan. There is a reason that we always have a steep earnings incline: you spend far more years at the 12-year longevity rate than you do at the 5-year longevity rate. Getting that top rate as high as possible will benefit you the most over the length of your career. So let's say we go with your idea and use the 8-year longevity rate, for example. That means that every single pilot over 8 years of longevity will be taking a paycut for as long as he works at that airline, potentially until the end of his career. Horrible idea, and not one that will get much support.

2. You'll have to give up too much to get it. Any radical change in the pay system will always be met with huge resistance from management. That means that they'll want you to give up a lot in work rules, retirement, insurance, etc... just to get this system that you're suggesting. You want to give up all of that? I don't.

3. We only bargain one carrier at a time, so you can't possibly achieve this at every regional simultaneously, not to mention the non-union and non-ALPA regionals that won't be involved in the strategy. That means that the first carrier that does this (let's say Air Whisky) will be at a huge competitive disadvantage to all other carriers that have an average longevity of less than your mid-point longevity. Pinnacle, for example, has an average longevity of somewhere in the 4-year range. That means that Pinnacle would be paying, on average. far less than Air Whisky would be until they bring their contract into the new strategy, assuming that they even do. This eliminates your whole goal of leveling the playing field with longevity.


Does that answer your question?
 

Trip7

Well-Known Member
You weren't here for the "sign this and we'll get BIGGER jets and more flying" speech? That was just in 2006. About a week after that fell through, then the "We're gonna lose the NWA flying if you don't sign this" rhetoric started.
Man I can't believe some of the statements I've heard PNCL management say. Does your management even have a lick of compassion for their employees?:banghead:
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
Nope. Not one.
:yeahthat:

We're all a cost to be reduced and nothing more. They'll pit other employee groups against us and try to convince them that our sole purpose is to burn the airline down rather than work with other groups to make the airline better. Working here has really opened my eyes to how good I had it working on the ramp at SWA. Heck, I even felt more valued as a ramp worker at XJT than I do as a pilot here.
 

SpiceWeasel

Tre Kronor
:yeahthat:

We're all a cost to be reduced and nothing more. They'll pit other employee groups against us and try to convince them that our sole purpose is to burn the airline down rather than work with other groups to make the airline better. Working here has really opened my eyes to how good I had it working on the ramp at SWA. Heck, I even felt more valued as a ramp worker at XJT than I do as a pilot here.
With all the memos we've gotten.... we probably could burn the airline down. :sarcasm::laff:

And I said, I don't care if they lay me off either, because I told, I told Bill that if they move my desk one more time, then, then I'm, I'm quitting, I'm going to quit. And, and I told Don too, because they've moved my desk four times already this year, and I used to be over by the window, and I could see the squirrels, and they were married, but then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much, and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and it's not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire...
 

FLguy

Well-Known Member
Teamsters, ALPA, whoever.. we need cooperation between various pilot groups and unions not more infighting. We are way too divided and I don't mean mainline vs. regional I mean regional vs. regional. We need to find ways to solve our own unique problems and stop waiting for somebody else to save us. By that I mean crackpot ideas like a NSL, or wishful thinking that the mainline unions will finally see the light and bring all the flying back in house, or hoping that another regional will finally get enough leverage to raise the bar long enough to benefit anyone (can you say Comair?). Might as well wait for the tooth fairy to come along and grant us all industry leading contracts. I don't have the answers, but I do know that as long as we continue to fight amongst ourselves and cling to that "regional mentality" things are only going to get worse. It's time to wake up and smell you career because regional flying may be it for a lot of us. The battle was lost years ago and the market forces in favor of contract lift are overwhelming. That's the reality, the question is what are we going to do about it?
 
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