National Seniority list

Toonces

Well-Known Member
I looked on the ALPA website for new info and there is nothing there. Checked my companies ALPA website and nothing there either. I don't see anyone discussing it on the boards either. Seggy or anybody else have any info as to what's going on with this? I am guessing it won't ever happen. It reminds me of income tax reform. Everybody thinks it's a great idea, but nothing ever get's done about it.

Before you get the chance Seggy....No I have not called my rep. I was watching the news tonight and watching the daily jobs bloodbath situation. It got me thinking about every other professional out there facing layoffs and unemployment. I was thinking how it would suck to lose your job as an accountant or whatever, but for other people there is hope that when you do find a new job you will likely make as much or more money than your last job. That was a run on sentence. Sorry too lazy to fix it.
 

CaptBill

Well-Known Member
A national seniority list has been tossed about for years but frankly, I don't think it will ever happen. There would be sooooooo many obstacles to overcome it would be like walking through quicksand. In my opinion, there are too many "me first" attitudes in the industry, both individuals and specific pilot groups, to ever come together for the common good of all.

It makes for interesting discussion though.
 

WalterSobchak

Well-Known Member
We need national longevity not seniority. No one from another company should be able to come to your company and bid a better schedule because theirs bit the dust and yours didn't. So some one goes to a POS carrier(we'll say Mesa for argument sake) and it goes TU and they should move on over to your company(say ASA) and move a head of you because you waited and met higher mins at a better company? Sounds like a race to the bottom if you ask me. Get on with the first POS that will take you:rolleyes:. However I think people should be rewarded for their years with ALPA. National Longevity would solve the problem. Just do it like the teachers. You go to the bottom if you are new, but your payscale is reflected in years of service. I know no management would go for it straight up so maybe ratio off years of service to a national payrate i.e. 3:1 or something.
 

Toonces

Well-Known Member
We need national longevity not seniority. No one from another company should be able to come to your company and bid a better schedule because theirs bit the dust and yours didn't. So some one goes to a POS carrier(we'll say Mesa for argument sake) and it goes TU and they should move on over to your company(say ASA) and move a head of you because you waited and met higher mins at a better company? Sounds like a race to the bottom if you ask me. Get on with the first POS that will take you:rolleyes:. However I think people should be rewarded for their years with ALPA. National Longevity would solve the problem. Just do it like the teachers. You go to the bottom if you are new, but your payscale is reflected in years of service. I know no management would go for it straight up so maybe ratio off years of service to a national payrate i.e. 3:1 or something.
I meant longevity. Oops my bad.
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Evil Landlord Capitalist
Before you get the chance Seggy....No I have not called my rep
Why not? That should be your first step.

And while we're at it, if you want something like this to happen, then maybe you should stop supporting politicians that want to destroy union leverage to achieve it.
 

granlistillo

Well-Known Member
And while we're at it, if you want something like this to happen, then maybe you should stop supporting politicians that want to destroy union leverage to achieve it.
With Obama taking over the reins with both houses Dem, this shouldn't be an issue right? Balance will return to the force and all will be hunky dory?
 

Hacker15e

Dunning–Kruger Observer
The problem ultimately with this is that companies won't be inclined to hire experienced pilots.

Since seniority will be the same -- e.g. they'll still be hiring for that bottom-of-the-totem-pole FO job -- then why would a company ever hire someone they have to pay, say, 10th year logenvity pay for when they can hire a new guy off the street and pay 1st year longevity pay?
 

BajtheJino

I'm looking at you.
Why not? That should be your first step.

And while we're at it, if you want something like this to happen, then maybe you should stop supporting politicians that want to destroy union leverage to achieve it.
So now we have politicians to blame for not having a national seniority system in place? I'm just curious, what did Bill Clinton do for airlines the 8 years he was in office?
 

Toonces

Well-Known Member
So now we have politicians to blame for not having a national seniority system in place? I'm just curious, what did Bill Clinton do for airlines the 8 years he was in office?
Yeah what he said.
For those of you that think Obama is your best hope for higher pay, I say you're in for a little disappointment. In politics the loudest sqeeky wheel gets the grease. The general public does not care what we make. The general public thinks we all make 250k and work 10 days a month. As soon as management thinks they may have to pay us another dime they will start a P.R campaign. They will raise ticket prices and blame the greedy under worked pilots for it. As soon as the media gets hold of that info they will rush to the airport to stick a camera in front of the little flabby fatcake family and ask them how they feel about airlines raising the price of their tickets to pay those fat cat pilots their 300k a year salaries. We will be labeled the bad guys, after all some of us make more than Obamas magical 200k rich guy figure. As soon as that happens Obama will backpedal like every other politician would. The general public will have priority over us. Sorry to ruin your plans PCL 128. Back to the tool shed.
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
I like the idea of national longevity list, and I'd be all for it.

As for Obama, what he brings to the table is a more labor friendly attitude, which slants the NMB in our direction. It might not magically raise pay rates, but it at least puts the possibility of being able to strike back on the table. Something we haven't seen in over 7 years. Would have been longer had Bush actually been able to intervene in the Comair strike.
 

Velocipede

New Member
You've probably heard this before, but here's how it should work at least within ALPA:

When you get hired at your first ALPA carrier, you get an ALPA number. If you voluntarily change carriers (i.e. from American Eagle to Delta, for example) you go to the bottom of Delta's seniority list, but you maintain your original ALPA number.

Then when Delta merges with Northwest, the SLI is by ALPA number. Sure, you'd jump over some of your peers at Delta AND Northwest, but you've been paying ALPA dues your entire tenure at AE.

This system would eliminate all the infighting that accompanies SLI during mergers especially at ALPA/ALPA carriers.

Hey, it would be a start anyway.
 

Toonces

Well-Known Member
You've probably heard this before, but here's how it should work at least within ALPA:

When you get hired at your first ALPA carrier, you get an ALPA number. If you voluntarily change carriers (i.e. from American Eagle to Delta, for example) you go to the bottom of Delta's seniority list, but you maintain your original ALPA number.

Then when Delta merges with Northwest, the SLI is by ALPA number. Sure, you'd jump over some of your peers at Delta AND Northwest, but you've been paying ALPA dues your entire tenure at AE.

This system would eliminate all the infighting that accompanies SLI during mergers especially at ALPA/ALPA carriers.

Hey, it would be a start anyway.
There was some talk a month or two ago about something like that or some sort of longevity system from ALPA. I got a blastmail about it I think. I went to ALPAs website and have found nothing about it since.

We need the ability to be able to move between airlines without starting off at day 1 FO pay if we really want a good shot at improving work rules and pay.
 

RightSeatGirl

KA'PLAH BITCHES!
There was some talk a month or two ago about something like that or some sort of longevity system from ALPA. I got a blastmail about it I think. I went to ALPAs website and have found nothing about it since.

We need the ability to be able to move between airlines without starting off at day 1 FO pay if we really want a good shot at improving work rules and pay.
Airlines would have to be willing to pay you based on total years of 121 service. But moving to a new carrier and then getting "scheduling seniority" over guys with less time in the biz but more time at that specific company would hardly be fair. The likelihood any airline will allow you to transfer your pay scale seniority from another carrier to work for them is zero.
 

WalterSobchak

Well-Known Member
There was some talk a month or two ago about something like that or some sort of longevity system from ALPA. I got a blastmail about it I think. I went to ALPAs website and have found nothing about it since.

We need the ability to be able to move between airlines without starting off at day 1 FO pay if we really want a good shot at improving work rules and pay.
Do it just like teachers in this country. They are all union and have had this thing figured out for alot longer than we have.
 

skydog

New Member
Why make a simple situation complicated? Instead of national seniority or national longevity, just eliminate longevity based pays scales. One rate for a given aircraft and seat, regardless of how long you've been in it. Does two things for you: 1) eliminates the marginal cost incentive of shifting flying from one carrier to another, 2) eases the financial hit when switching jobs.
 

WalterSobchak

Well-Known Member
Why make a simple situation complicated? Instead of national seniority or national longevity, just eliminate longevity based pays scales. One rate for a given aircraft and seat, regardless of how long you've been in it.
Huh?

Does two things for you: 1) eliminates the marginal cost incentive of shifting flying from one carrier to another, 2) eases the financial hit when switching jobs.
HUH?

So you are insisting our pay never goes up? Or we start off at the top of the pay scale for every one? That isn't the point of the discussion and it really doesn't make any sense? Like any management would ever sign off on a contract that have every one peaked on the payscale. Thats insane. If you lower the payscale with what you are suggesting then you are hurting the guys at the peak who have earned it.

National Longevity makes sense from the stand point that if you pay dues to your union for X amount of years and then go to the bottom of another carrier for reasons beyond your control the union helps get you better pay to start over, but you go to the bottom of the senority list. You picked your pony and she broke down why should some one else move back at their company for you?
 

FLguy

Well-Known Member
NSL is a pipe dream. How about setting standard union pay rates across the board as a target for negotiations? We need to ditch the concept of pattern bargaining and set realistic minimum target pay rates for everyone. We can quibble over work rules with management but hourly rates should be somewhat fixed. This would be easy to achieve because pilots would be strongly discouraged from working for any airline that set rates below these minimums. Believe it or not management would love it because they would be paying the same rates as their competitors. This strategy might not "raise the bar" very much, but it at least will halt the race to the bottom and would have a lot better chance of gaining broad acceptance than a NSL scheme.
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
Pattern bargaining is a good idea on paper, and it worked well back in the day. Now, I think, we're our own worst enemies at the regional level. Pattern bargaining might still work at the major level, but at the regionals, all management has to say is "take these lower pay rates for growth and a quick upgrade," and there will be a huge group of guys that trip over each other to vote "yes."
 

FLguy

Well-Known Member
Pattern bargaining is a good idea on paper, and it worked well back in the day. Now, I think, we're our own worst enemies at the regional level. Pattern bargaining might still work at the major level, but at the regionals, all management has to say is "take these lower pay rates for growth and a quick upgrade," and there will be a huge group of guys that trip over each other to vote "yes."
You've got it backwards. It's never take these rates for growth, it's accept these rates or we'll shrink and you'll be out of a job. By establishing a floor you prevent severe undercutting by the Skybuses and Go Jets of the world. It's very simple if a company is trying to pay below the minimum national rate nobody goes to work there until they do. The problem has always been your definition of a "bottom feeder" or an "undercutter" might be different than mine, this way it would be crystal clear. Indiviudal groups are free to negotiate rates higher than the minimum but nobody goes below, period. Individual Instead of "raising the bar" we need to try and raise the floor.
 
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