National Seniority List Proposal

[Velocipede]

Not necessarily. An ALPA NSL would be ALPA specific and its existance might actually encourage more pilot groups to join. Why? Because in an ALPA/Non-ALPA merger, anyone who has an ALPA number will be slotted in numerical order. All non-ALPA pilots would be stapled in their Company seniority order.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Not necessarily. An ALPA NSL would be ALPA specific and its existance might actually encourage more pilot groups to join. Why? Because in an ALPA/Non-ALPA merger, anyone who has an ALPA number will be slotted in numerical order. All non-ALPA pilots would be stapled in their Company seniority order.

Think about this from an organizing standpoint. In a "hypothetical" ALPA drive at my company, how could I explain to our senior pilots that have never been ALPA members, but have been in this profession for a very long time, that their standing on the new NSL would be below someone who is a brand new regional pilot? Think they'll be on board with the ALPA drive? Nope. They'll fight it to the death. The UAL pilots rightly included experience "benchmarks" as part of their resolution so that non-ALPA and even non-union pilots wouldn't be left out in the cold.

 

[Velocipede]

Think about this from an organizing standpoint. In a "hypothetical" ALPA drive at my company, how could I explain to our senior pilots that have never been ALPA members, but have been in this profession for a very long time, that their standing on the new NSL would be below someone who is a brand new regional pilot?

But it wouldn't. They would still maintain their system seniority. In an ALPA drive, everyone would stay in the same place, regardless of previous ALPA membership. The numerical reshuffle would ONLY occur during a merger/acquisition.

That would HELP you organize your hypothetical property, giving you the argument, "If we get bought or merged without ALPA they you WILL go to the bottom of the list. That's a powerful selling point, IMHO.

The UAL pilots rightly included experience "benchmarks" as part of their resolution so that non-ALPA and even non-union pilots wouldn't be left out in the cold.

Personally, I wish ALPA would start acting like a REAL Union and quit worrying about the "rights" of non-members. Especially with regards to the jumpseat....

Oops, banned for using the "j" word!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The numerical reshuffle would ONLY occur during a merger/acquisition.

That would HELP you organize your hypothetical property, giving you the argument, "If we get bought or merged without ALPA they you WILL go to the bottom of the list. That's a powerful selling point, IMHO.

Maybe I'm not understanding what your proposed plan is. Tell me how this hypothetical pilot would fit into your plan:

15 year AirTran pilot
Top 5% within company
Never been an ALPA member

If the NPA merged with ALPA under your plan, and then AirTran subsequently merged with UAL, for example, where would this pilot fall on the combined list? Under the ALG-Mohawk LPPs, which would be used right now without an NSL, he could reasonably expect to fall quite high on the combined list.

Personally, I wish ALPA would start acting like a REAL Union and quit worrying about the "rights" of non-members. Especially with regards to the jumpseat....

Oops, banned for using the "j" word!

I agree with that, but only if there is a grace period that allows non-ALPA pilot groups the opportunity to organize and become ALPA members. If you say that "starting next week all non-ALPA pilots will be denied jumpseats," then you'll just start a war that nobody will win. If you give everyone a 2-year grace period to give them a chance to consider and join ALPA, then it could be productive for building the ALPA membership base.

 

[WalterSobchak]

National Longevity not Seniority is whats needed. Let's reward the lazy for going to Jet U and then Mesa at 19 or 20. You should get credit for years served in ALPA(for pay), but you go to a different company you should be at the bottom of the list period. You picked your pony now ride. You guys in favor of National Seniority should go be carpenters or some other unskilled labor force if you have that mind set. 1-800-Hand-Saw they are hiring.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

But it wouldn't. They would still maintain their system seniority. In an ALPA drive, everyone would stay in the same place, regardless of previous ALPA membership. The numerical reshuffle would ONLY occur during a merger/acquisition.

That would HELP you organize your hypothetical property, giving you the argument, "If we get bought or merged without ALPA they you WILL go to the bottom of the list. That's a powerful selling point, IMHO.



Personally, I wish ALPA would start acting like a REAL Union and quit worrying about the "rights" of non-members. Especially with regards to the jumpseat....

Oops, banned for using the "j" word!

Yeah let's not let non-ALPA guys use the jumpseat, since they obviously are scabs.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

The NSL should be non-union specific.

All Part 121 airlines. All pilots. One list. By date of hire at your first Part 121 carrier. Period.

If you decide to leave Part 121, then come back - you start over.

If you stay for the entirety of your career - you move up the list accordingly.

What about a point system for each month in service (like the years of service for retirement pensions). You leave 121 for a period of time you don't accumulate points, but if you return you don't go to zero, but start back where you were.

Say you were 121 for a 16 months and then got the letter. Your out 12 months before recall. During that time you did some frieght flying to CFI'ng, or work at Quicky Mark. You come back in and you continue from 16 points getting a point for each month you were scheduled from your carrier.

Now the better plan would be you move from Regional A to Regional B (for better QOL, knowing it will be years before a mainline position) and you get to take your points with you and continue to accumulate.

The other idea is to outsource flying from the airlines to the NSL then it would be easier as you would be working for one company even if/when you moved to another airine.

NOTE: I'm not a 121 driver, I do work with unions almost on a daily basis in a professional manner (UAW for those wanting to know).

 

[ready2fly]

What about a point system for each month in service (like the years of service for retirement pensions). You leave 121 for a period of time you don't accumulate points, but if you return you don't go to zero, but start back where you were.

Say you were 121 for a 16 months and then got the letter. Your out 12 months before recall. During that time you did some frieght flying to CFI'ng, or work at Quicky Mark. You come back in and you continue from 16 points getting a point for each month you were scheduled from your carrier.

Now the better plan would be you move from Regional A to Regional B (for better QOL, knowing it will be years before a mainline position) and you get to take your points with you and continue to accumulate.

The other idea is to outsource flying from the airlines to the NSL then it would be easier as you would be working for one company even if/when you moved to another airine.

NOTE: I'm not a 121 driver, I do work with unions almost on a daily basis in a professional manner (UAW for those wanting to know).

Furlough is not the same as leaving voluntarily. if you are furloughed, you would keep your seniority. If you leave to go - say - to a frac, or part 91...or leave aviation altogether - by your own decision - THEN decide to come back - you would start over.

 

[Maurus]

That, in my opinion, is 100% Bullshat. This is why I believe a national seniority list is morally wrong. The only way to make it fair is to fire ALL 121 pilots, shut down EVERY airline, then start from scratch.

So, under your "vision" a pilot hired at Comair after I was hired at COEX and then hired at, let's say Frontier, would go ahead of me in merger by default? Frick that! Talk about a decertification #####storm. USAPA would look like a toddler's birthday party.

I thought Velo's idea wasn't bad. Only I would change is just to have two separate national lists. One for Majors and another for Regionals. Just need to set the proper rules to be classified a major so that large regionals don't get in the mix. Once getting hired by a major you will be at the bottom of the Major list thus having people not have to worry about regional pilots having higher seniority.

It would really suck having a higher seniority Regional pilot move up into a major just prior to a furlough and get furloughed with the regional pilot still working after maybe a couple months at the job. It almost makes a national seniority list worthless IMO if you don't make a distinction between the two parts of the airlines.

 

[Airdale]

WHEREAS THEREFORE IT BE RESOLVED TO LET IT BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS IT WAS ONCE FURTHER RESOLVED ONLY TO BE RESOLVED BEFORE IT BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS BEFORE IT WAS FURTHER RESOLVED IT BECAME RESOLVED UNTIL IT RESOLVED TO BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS IS COULD HAVE BEEN RESOLVED SOMETIME BEFORE IT WAS FURTHER RESOLVED. WHEREAS THEREFORE IT BE RESOLVED TO LET IT BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS IT WAS ONCE FURTHER RESOLVED ONLY TO BE RESOLVED BEFORE IT BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS BEFORE IT WAS FURTHER RESOLVED IT BECAME RESOLVED UNTIL IT RESOLVED TO BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS IS COULD HAVE BEEN RESOLVED SOMETIME BEFORE IT WAS FURTHER RESOLVED.WHEREAS THEREFORE IT BE RESOLVED TO LET IT BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS IT WAS ONCE FURTHER RESOLVED ONLY TO BE RESOLVED BEFORE IT BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS BEFORE IT WAS FURTHER RESOLVED IT BECAME RESOLVED UNTIL IT RESOLVED TO BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS IS COULD HAVE BEEN RESOLVED SOMETIME BEFORE IT WAS FURTHER RESOLVED.WHEREAS THEREFORE IT BE RESOLVED TO LET IT BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS IT WAS ONCE FURTHER RESOLVED ONLY TO BE RESOLVED BEFORE IT BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS BEFORE IT WAS FURTHER RESOLVED IT BECAME RESOLVED UNTIL IT RESOLVED TO BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS IS COULD HAVE BEEN RESOLVED SOMETIME BEFORE IT WAS FURTHER RESOLVED.

I love legal talk....:laff:

 

[Firebird2XC]

WHEREAS THEREFORE IT BE RESOLVED TO LET IT BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS IT WAS ONCE FURTHER RESOLVED ONLY TO BE RESOLVED BEFORE IT BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS BEFORE IT WAS FURTHER RESOLVED IT BECAME RESOLVED UNTIL IT RESOLVED TO BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS IS COULD HAVE BEEN RESOLVED SOMETIME BEFORE IT WAS FURTHER RESOLVED. WHEREAS THEREFORE IT BE RESOLVED TO LET IT BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS IT WAS ONCE FURTHER RESOLVED ONLY TO BE RESOLVED BEFORE IT BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS BEFORE IT WAS FURTHER RESOLVED IT BECAME RESOLVED UNTIL IT RESOLVED TO BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS IS COULD HAVE BEEN RESOLVED SOMETIME BEFORE IT WAS FURTHER RESOLVED.WHEREAS THEREFORE IT BE RESOLVED TO LET IT BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS IT WAS ONCE FURTHER RESOLVED ONLY TO BE RESOLVED BEFORE IT BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS BEFORE IT WAS FURTHER RESOLVED IT BECAME RESOLVED UNTIL IT RESOLVED TO BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS IS COULD HAVE BEEN RESOLVED SOMETIME BEFORE IT WAS FURTHER RESOLVED.WHEREAS THEREFORE IT BE RESOLVED TO LET IT BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS IT WAS ONCE FURTHER RESOLVED ONLY TO BE RESOLVED BEFORE IT BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS BEFORE IT WAS FURTHER RESOLVED IT BECAME RESOLVED UNTIL IT RESOLVED TO BE FURTHER RESOLVED WHEREAS IS COULD HAVE BEEN RESOLVED SOMETIME BEFORE IT WAS FURTHER RESOLVED.

I love legal talk....:laff:

Dude.... has enough caffeine today?

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Dude.... has enough caffeine today?

or maybe not enough!:rawk: