National Seniority List Proposal

At the very least, keeping Union pilots working first is the least an Union would do. Why ALPA doesn't already do that is beyond me.

That's pretty much what the FFD stuff is, but as of now it only applies to carriers providing feed to others. The good news is that it encompassed RAH and Horizon from the beginning so it's not just ALPA but really has the potential for covering everybody.
 
That's pretty much nuts. Anyone hired post-2006 would more or less be on reserve until people started retiring.....
 
You're part of the IBT right? So yeah, won't happen . . . the trucker union won't be invited I'm sure.

Sorry though ;)

Now, if you guys managed to ditch the Truck group, I'm pretty sure ALPA would be more than happy to lend it's College Bargaining arm in assistance in bringing you guys up to par with the rest of the industry.

Whether we were ALPA or not, it's not going to happen. You can all get excited and giddy about it...but it aint' going to happen while we're around. Up to par with the rest of the industry? I didn't know we were below the rest of the industry. Sort of comical considering.....never mind. ;)

Hey, it's always fun to speculate, right Surreal? ;)
 
Whether we were ALPA or not, it's not going to happen. You can all get excited and giddy about it...but it aint' going to happen while we're around. Up to par with the rest of the industry? I didn't know we were below the rest of the industry. Sort of comical considering.....never mind. ;)

Hey, it's always fun to speculate, right Surreal? ;)

It is. Don't have to get overly sensitive now either. It'll be alright.
 
It is. Don't have to get overly sensitive now either. It'll be alright.

Overly sensitive? Serious? I have a 10 day daughter at home now...not much will get me worked up anymore. I'm at a non ALPA carrier and fine with that. I'm just simply stating that may this may happen sometime in the future, we won't be flying when it does...and it'll be a national seniority list, not one affected by whether or not you are/have been an ALPA member.

8-9 months from now, things that seemed sooooo important to you to bring up in every post will definitely take a back seat.
 
How about my scenario? I worked for a 121 non-union carrier for six months then furloughed. Hired by Continental Express when it was IACP. ALPA voted on property one year later. Worked for non-ALPA carrier (AirTran-NPA) for ten months. Hired by ALPA legacy (SouthernJets) one year ago. As yall can see, this gets REAL complicated. When would my "National" number start?
 
Just so everyone knows, the UAL MEC's original version of this resolution that the OP posted is DOA. The Executive Board crafted a new resolution that addresses some of the concerns that have been brought up and makes the committee composition much more fair. Here's the new resolution:

AIRLINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
103RD REGULAR EXECUTIVE BOARD MEETING
September 9-10, 2008

SUBJECT
National Seniority Protocol

SOURCE
UAL MEC

Distribution Approved By:
Delegate Committee Chairman

DELEGATE COMMITTEE RECOMENDATION

WHEREAS the Airline Pilots Association has been at the forefront of pilot labor representation in the airline industry since 1931, and has consistently been the champion of safety protocols that assure our passengers have safest transportation system possible, and

WHEREAS the 77 year history of ALPA is replete with examples of bold decisions made by ALPA leaders in order to assure that measures, necessary to protect the economic bargaining rights and professional interests of its members, have been instituted and that the best interests of the profession have been secured, and

WHEREAS opportunities to make significant and enduring policy changes that enhances the professional opportunities of every ALPA member come along rarely and are often precipitated by industry destabilizing events like those brought to bear on ALPA members with The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, the September 11th acts of war, the bankruptcy era, and the current manipulated inflation of the price of petroleum, and

WHEREAS the most unfulfilled professional benefit, recognized by all airline pilots and by ALPA members specifically, is the lack of a policy, derived from fundamental union principals, that enables and enforces the individual member's ability to transfer their seniority, longevity, and operational experience as professionals from one airline employer to another,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Executive Board acknowledges this historic and momentous opportunity in time when several key air carrier contract amendable dates are so closely aligned, and which could be coordinated as part of this undertaking, that will launch a historic, new career security protocol for all ALPA pilots and by design, realign the true interests and career expectations of every pilot representative by ALPA both now and in the future, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the President appoint a seven member special committee composed of the Chairman and Vice Chairman of the Merger Policy Review Committee, Chairman of the Collective Bargaining Committee and three additional members (one each from Group A, Group B and Group c pilot group, including members familiar with the work of the Fee For Departure Task Force), together with a National Officer, to address the issues presented by this national seniority protocol item, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the special committee coordinate with and consider relevant work of the MPRC, CBC, and FFD Task Force in carrying out its assignment, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the special committee also consider and report with recommendations on the following issues in carrying out its assignment:

1. Proposed method for ALPA governing body approval of a national seniority protocol including a prior comprehensive membership communication program.

2. Methods for implementation of a national seniority protocol through collective bargaining negotiations, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the special committee report to the Executive Council at its January and April 2009 meetings and to the Executive Board at its May 2009 meeting.
 
Excuse me? Them's fighting words, Josh.

I know. . .but. . .

I'm sure something could be worked out, especially if your labor group is recognized by at least the NMB, or(and perhaps) if you're also part of the AFL-CIO.

Then, perhaps not back at zero - like my second solution. But if you're off to some union that is a company union that is not recognized by the NMB, nor are you affiliated with a larger trade union organization; would it really be fair to everyone who stuck it through with the original union (ALPA) if someone who decided to leave, for whatever motivations, to really be able to continue to reap the benefits later on down the road? It'd provide motivation for bringing ALPA on property at companies that have a large percentage of ALPA pilots from their previous companies. Further bringing more professional pilots under the umbrella of ALPA.

I honestly wouldn't mind a 7 or 10 year expiration period, or you can voluntarily expire your ALPA NSL number at any point prior to the expiration date.

Muh - just a thought.
 
When you got your ALPA number at Express under my vision.

That, in my opinion, is 100% Bullshat. This is why I believe a national seniority list is morally wrong. The only way to make it fair is to fire ALL 121 pilots, shut down EVERY airline, then start from scratch.

So, under your "vision" a pilot hired at Comair after I was hired at COEX and then hired at, let's say Frontier, would go ahead of me in merger by default? Frick that! Talk about a decertification #####storm. USAPA would look like a toddler's birthday party.
 
I know. . .but. . .

I'm sure something could be worked out, especially if your labor group is recognized by at least the NMB, or(and perhaps) if you're also part of the AFL-CIO.

Then, perhaps not back at zero - like my second solution. But if you're off to some union that is a company union that is not recognized by the NMB, nor are you affiliated with a larger trade union organization; would it really be fair to everyone who stuck it through with the original union (ALPA) if someone who decided to leave, for whatever motivations, to really be able to continue to reap the benefits later on down the road? It'd provide motivation for bringing ALPA on property at companies that have a large percentage of ALPA pilots from their previous companies. Further bringing more professional pilots under the umbrella of ALPA.

I honestly wouldn't mind a 7 or 10 year expiration period, or you can voluntarily expire your ALPA NSL number at any point prior to the expiration date.

Muh - just a thought.

Sorry, but NO. An ALPA number is yours for life. You never cease to be an ALPA member, you just go to inactive status. My ALPA number is thousands of numbers ahead of yours. You think you should be slotted in ahead of me if this NSL comes to pass? BS. How do you think your idea would affect ALPA organizing efforts at non-ALPA carriers. Let's say "hypothetically" that I'm involved in bringing ALPA to my non-ALPA carrier, and while I'm doing this, you come along and create this NSL and leave my airline's pilots out in the cold, even though many of them had ALPA numbers before you took your first flight lesson. You think I would keep working on that ALPA drive? Not likely. Every non-ALPA carrier would forever be lost to ALPA. No more hopes of organizing them. Divide and conquer forever. Very bad idea.
 
So, under that rule, you'd have people getting ALPA carrier jobs, get off probabtion, go somewhere like jetBlue or Virgin America for 10-15 years, then go to Delta and suddenly JUMP everyone for the cool retirement packages. Sorry, I don't like that. You could get an ALPA number, leave after a year, fly the rest of your career at a non-union carrier, then come back to an ALPA carrier and enjoy the benefits other worked for while you were "inactive."
 
Wait... the way I understood Velo's plan is it ONLY applies to placement in your new hire class and it does not slot you on the company seniority list ahead of other people. If, somehow you could get companies to agree to that and longevity associated with the NSL I think that would be a win win situation.
 
Just my thoughts off the top of my head:

The NSL should be non-union specific.

All Part 121 airlines. All pilots. One list. By date of hire at your first Part 121 carrier. Period.

If you decide to leave Part 121, then come back - you start over.

If you stay for the entirety of your career - you move up the list accordingly.

This is the only industry that I am aware of (and please feel free to correct me if you know of another) where, if you move from one company to another - regardless of your experience - you start at the bottom.

That is insane.
 
Wait... the way I understood Velo's plan is it ONLY applies to placement in your new hire class and it does not slot you on the company seniority list ahead of other people. If, somehow you could get companies to agree to that and longevity associated with the NSL I think that would be a win win situation.

Exactly. Your ALPA/NSL number would ONLY come into play during a merger/acquisition. Anytime you VOLUNTARILY go to another carrier, you start at the bottom of thier established seniority list.

Then the ALPA/NSL number only comes into play in ranking YOUR NEW HIRE CLASS.

Man, some people need to just read for comprehension. :banghead:
 
That's similar to what the Fee For Departure Task Force is working on, except they are broadening the terms "merger/acquisition" to include instances where some of you're company's airplanes go somewhere else as well.
 
So then, in the case of a Non-ALPA company and an ALPA company merging. . .the whole ALPA NSL would be voided essentially.

Precedent has shown that, for various reasons - right or wrong - that it's pulling teeth.
 
Exactly. Your ALPA/NSL number would ONLY come into play during a merger/acquisition. Anytime you VOLUNTARILY go to another carrier, you start at the bottom of thier established seniority list.

Then the ALPA/NSL number only comes into play in ranking YOUR NEW HIRE CLASS.

Man, some people need to just read for comprehension. :banghead:

Velo, your idea I like. It was Todd's "ALPA number for life" that kinda went the wrong way, IMO.
 
Back
Top