Man, I hate it when I don't have access to my computer for a couple days. So, let's get this show on the road...
Fair? You wanna talk about fair? How about fair is IBT, 135 and military pilots have not been paying into ALPA. The majority if airline pilots are ALPA, and have been paying dues to the organization for years. Why should IBT pilots, 135 pilots or military pilots get a free ride with OUR money?
Excellent point. The question is whether you're talking about a TRUE NSL or an ALPA NSL. For a TRUE NSL, you have to order it by the date guys get their ATP. For an ALPA NSL, you order it by ALPA number.
Your retired career Military guys have traditionally gone straight to the Legacy airlines.
Not quite true. Career military guys are comfortable in a system that is merit based (although in any human endeavor there are political considerations). Therefore, they tend to gravitate toward non-Union airlines. Additionally, unless you have a legacy that prefers military experience (DAL in the old days) most military aviators don't have the hours to be competitive with regional guys. Lots of them go to the regionals as well. Of course, military retirement checks help offset the low wages at regional carriers. A lot of them decide to stay at the regionals because they get senior faster.
There isn't any other feasible criteria. Besides, it would be an ALPA benefit, sort of the same way as jumpseating began.
VELOCIPEDE POWERS ACTIVATE!
Activated, SIR!
One Union, One Voice. . .ALPA.
I wish. Unfortunately, ALPA isn't a UNION. Its an Association of MECs who are all trying to protect their particular territory. Just look at AAA/AWA and NWA/DAL if you need examples. If we were a real UNION, you'd have to go the ALPA Union Hall if you wanted to hire pilots. We'd have a NSL and a National Pay Scale.
Companies would pay the same rate for 757 pilots nationally. Instead we have individually negotiated contracts...a perfect vehicle for management to drive our wages down.
Right now everyone starts at zero anyway. Military guys aren't given any credit for their prior time. Additionally, as much as they hate to admit it, they don't have a clue how 121 ops work, so 5 years of military flying doesn't equate to 5 years of line flying part 121.
Correct if you're talking about an ALPA NSL.
Additionally, non Alpa shops wouldn't be considered because it's a union negotiated benefit.
Look at the electrical workers (IBEW). A guy who works 10 years at a non union shop doesn't get a day's credit if he decides to go to IBEW. He joins IBEW and he's starting over from day one. Same thing happens to a guy who did electrical work in the military or anyone else.
This also puts national pressure on non union pilots to reconsider whether they want to remain non union, as it's another union given benefit.
Trying to say how many ATPs there are and compare to ALPA membership is a joke anyway. There are a lot of ATPs who are either retired or never went into an airline to begin with. There are a large number of ATP holders who got it just to get it.
Also keep in mind: If this is an ALPA negotiated benefit, they are doing it based on what's best for the membership. There's no reason for ALPA to consider the opinions of those who aren't members. It's as if you said ALPA couldn't provide furlough pay because IBT doesn't (it's not relevent if they do or not, this is an example). It's an ALPA benefit being talked about, not an IBT one.
I think if you were going to get anything from mgmt, it'd be a sliding type scale. Basically, you'd get partial credit based on experience. So you wouldn't start over at the bottom, but wouldn't get your 10 year pay at a new company.
For something like this to work, it'd also need clauses in the contracts requiring the company to hire any applicants who are ALPA members in good standing before non union members.
This will also be decried as "not fair!" but that's how the successful nationalized unions work. Current members *HAVE* to be put ahead of non members for the system to work. It's not about being "fair" to everyone who flies an airplane. It's about being the best for union members.
I have not heard a single good reason for ALPA to give credit to non union members in this scheme. It doesn't put them in any worse of a position than they are now, just gives a benefit to the ones who are members. I know that there are a lot of members of the entitlement generation here, but life isn't fair and just becuase someone else gets something doesn't mean it's automatically *your's* too.
:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:
Who exactly awarded ALPA the right to give credit in the first place.
ALPA has that right for ALPA carriers. A TRUE NSL would be a horse of a different color.
until EVERYBODY is willing to compromise, nobody will have a true NL.
And, pilots being what we are, this is why it will never happen. Everyone is terrified that the next merger will keep them from upgrading to their 777 seat. Don't think so, just listen to all the moaning about the Age 65 rule. My God, we're a bunch of greedy bastiges. And our own worst enemy.
ALPA can do whatever they want within their own organization. Since this would only apply to ALPA carriers, they don't really need the approval of a bunch of fractional pilots. Just as you would not go to ALPA to ask them for permission to do whatever you want to do on your property.
No thanks. Membership has its privileges. One of the major benefits of such a longevity setup would be the incentive for ALPA membership. Organizing drives would suddenly become a hell of a lot easier if ALPA membership adds the benefit of guaranteed longevity across company lines.
In other words, USAPA pilots will be thoroughly confused.
:yup::yup::yup:
They aren't developing an NSL, they're developing an ALPA longevity list based on ALPA number. As I've said many times before, an NSL is impossible since some pilots are ALPA, some are independent unions, and some are non-union. ALPA can only control what happens within ALPA. What outside unions do is their own business, and ALPA can't negotiate for them.
Right on. That's why a TRUE NSL would have to be based on DoA (Date of ATP).
I simply disagree. ALPA shouldn't be using resources and leverage to directly benefit pilots that aren't ALPA members. That's a misuse of dues revenue of the pilots that are members of the Association. Membership has its privileges. Want the privileges? Join.
I didn't say it was a national seniority list, I said it was a "first step" on the way towards such. Getting there will take many such steps. The cliche is very true in union work: a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:
So, then if this "plan" were to become a reality, it wouldn't benefit you in the least? Just seems kind of odd to me. You constantly rail against non-ALPA carriers, but you work for one..??
Actually, as he said, it the NON-union carriers that get my goat. All pilot unions help "jack the house", regardless of whether they're ALPA, SWAPA, APA, NPA.
Exactly. What you ALPA guys do within ALPA is your own perogative, and by all means create your own list without regard to the rest of us. But since we're talking about a "national seniority list", you're beyond the scope of ALPA. I'm simply saying there's no fair way to integrate all professional pilots nationwide, and thus it will never happen.
Sure there is. The FAA knows the date your ATP was issued. Just create a list based on that. Assign #1 to the oldest certificate and go down the line...Presto! NSL.
I fly both military and Part 121, but I don't have an ATP--guess I better get one or else my seniority is screwed! :nana2:
I was a military pilot. I went to ATL and did the weekend ATP mill as soon as I had 1500 hours.
