NAFI/SAFE/Master Instructor chaos

SAFE is a splinter group from NAFI after NAFI decided to administrate the Master Instructor program in-house rather than have Sandy and JoAnn Hill (independent contractors) run it.

The decision ticked a lot of people off when the Hills were fired. Last month those people started the Society of Aviation and Flight Educators (SAFE) as a competitor to NAFI and now some legal threats have started going back and forth as to who has the right to administrate the Master Instructor program (SAFE or NAFI).

It's a lot deeper than that, but I don't have time to get into it.

http://www.safepilots.org
 
While the problem with the Hills was the straw that broke the camel's back, it probably had more to do with the make up of the board, the lack of responsiveness of board members to the complaints of members, and the election of board members. I was surprised to discover that board members were not elected by the members- essentially it was a good ol' boys/gals club. Some of the members were not even CFIs and I think some were not pilots.
Some very prominent CFIs have left the organization in disgust. I would go to the websites for both organizations and decide for yourself.
 
Or the AGI. People always say about the AGI, "well, it's something else to put on the resume..." As if anyone who'd be reading their aviation resume wouldn't recognize it as a useless resume garnish.
Another good point.

Hey, if you don't want to market yourself, nobody's forcing you to!
So now I have to be a "Master CFI" (whatever that means) to market myself? To quote Tommy Boy..."Hi, I'm Earth...have we met?"

Which is my ultimate point. . .

NAFI was, and will be a continual money and power grab.
Follow the money. Everywhere.

-mini
 
So now I have to be a "Master CFI" (whatever that means) to market myself?

No, I never said that.

Just curious, have you done any research in to what it takes to become a Master Instructor? It's spelled out on the application form available through NAFI's web site. I think it would be good to familiarize yourself with the program and what it means before passing judgment on its value.

Obviously you don't have to be a Master Instructor to market yourself. To me you sound hostile towards the Master Instructor program for some reason and I don't know why.

All I was trying to say is that it's a worthwhile professional accreditation that can be used to enhance your image with prospective clients.

Can you be an excellent, talented, professional instructor *without* the MCFI accreditation? Of course!

Can you use the MCFI accreditation to *help prove* you're an excellent, talented, professional instructor? Yes! That's what it's designed for!


Also, for what it's worth, this is not a system unique to aviation/instructing. There are many other industries that offer optional accreditations through professional organizations. In the communication field, the Public Relations Society of America is a dominant organization. Can you work as a public relations consultant without PRSA accreditation? Sure, many of my friends do. Will the PRSA "stamp of approval" look good and lead to more/better job opportunities? Certainly! That's why people who are serious about working in the communication field bother to get it.

The MCFI is the exact same deal.
 
No, I never said that.
Then what were you attempting to imply?

Just curious, have you done any research in to what it takes to become a Master Instructor?
Yes

It's spelled out on the application form available through NAFI's web site.
Seen it...quite a few times.

I think it would be good to familiarize yourself with the program and what it means before passing judgment on its value.
As I've done.

Obviously you don't have to be a Master Instructor to market yourself.
Then, again, what was meant by...

Hey, if you don't want to market yourself, nobody's forcing you to!
?

To me you sound hostile towards the Master Instructor program for some reason and I don't know why.
I thought I made that pretty clear. I think it's a complete joke. It's akin to a paperwork rating like the glorious SIC Type. That and a quarter...

My problem really is with NAFI trying to sell this "glorification" to instructors across america.

All I was trying to say is that it's a worthwhile professional accreditation that can be used to enhance your image with prospective clients.
Have you heard the old saying that "if you have to tell people how good you are, you probably aren't"? I'm not saying or attempting to imply that you are or are not a good instructor. I'm just saying that there have to be a good percentage of "Master CFIs" that use the "title" to "enhance [their] image with prospective clients". I don't think a good flight instructor should need to go that route.

Can you be an excellent, talented, professional instructor *without* the MCFI accreditation? Of course!
No arguing.

Can you use the MCFI accreditation to *help prove* you're an excellent, talented, professional instructor? Yes! That's what it's designed for!
So...because an organization that was designed to promote excellent, talented and professional instructors says you're an excellent, talented, professional instructor it must be true?

So if the Center for Global Warming research came out and said "global warming is real! oogy boogy!" that would make it true?

Also, for what it's worth, this is not a system unique to aviation/instructing. There are many other industries that offer optional accreditations through professional organizations. In the communication field, the Public Relations Society of America is a dominant organization. Can you work as a public relations consultant without PRSA accreditation? Sure, many of my friends do. Will the PRSA "stamp of approval" look good and lead to more/better job opportunities? Certainly! That's why people who are serious about working in the communication field bother to get it.

The MCFI is the exact same deal.
Those programs are ridiculous too. That's my opinion on the matter. You are certainly free to believe what you want about the program, but to seem to imply that without being a "master" CFI, you are somehow a lesser instructor seems a bit absurd.

Maybe I should start an organization similar to NAFI. I could charge $10 for annual re-certification and I could even send them a fancy certificate with a little gold seal on it. They could then use that to prove they are excellent, professional and talented instructors and use that qualification to prove it to prospective clients. What would make that new organization any less "correct" (for lack of a better term) than NAFI?

-mini
 
I'm not a fan of all the drama so instead of shelling out the cash, this year, I'll just let my membership expire.


I'll just buy more been instead.
 
Then what were you attempting to imply?

It sounded like you took my statement to mean, "Being a Master CFI is the *only* way to market yourself." That's not what I said or what I meant to say. It's not an all-or-nothing deal.

What I tried to convey was, "If you don't want to use the Master CFI accreditation to promote yourself, that's ok, nobody is forcing you to."



I thought I made that pretty clear. I think it's a complete joke. It's akin to a paperwork rating like the glorious SIC Type. That and a quarter...

My problem really is with NAFI trying to sell this "glorification" to instructors across america.

Ok, we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

I think the requirements / review process needed to become a Master are much more than a "paperwork rating" but that's my personal opinion.

Also, I don't see this system as trying to sell glorification as much as it is trying to increase professionalism. What's wrong with trying to reward instructors who take their jobs seriously and have a long term commitment to teaching?

Have you heard the old saying that "if you have to tell people how good you are, you probably aren't"? I'm not saying or attempting to imply that you are or are not a good instructor. I'm just saying that there have to be a good percentage of "Master CFIs" that use the "title" to "enhance [their] image with prospective clients". I don't think a good flight instructor should need to go that route.

Fair enough. But just because you don't believe the title is necessary doesn't mean the title is worthless.

Look at it this way: You're Joe Schmoe who doesn't know anything about flying. You go to your local airport and talk to a few instructors. You ask them about their qualifications. One instructor mentions being a Master Instructor while the other one doesn't. Who is going to *look* better? It doesn't matter who *is* better, the bottom line is that the Master CFI will look better, especially to a lay person.

There are plenty of excellent instructors who are not Masters, but the thing is, a person with no knowledge of aviation has no way to determine who's who.

So...because an organization that was designed to promote excellent, talented and professional instructors says you're an excellent, talented, professional instructor it must be true?

No, it's not about the organization, it's about the application and review process.

I've met numerous Master CFIs and frankly, they're all really good teachers. I haven't met any Masters who are complete tools. Not saying there aren't a few out there, but as a whole, it's a very good group.

If the system is so flawed, why aren't there a bunch of lousy, low quality Masters in the mix?

Those programs are ridiculous too. That's my opinion on the matter. You are certainly free to believe what you want about the program, but to seem to imply that without being a "master" CFI, you are somehow a lesser instructor seems a bit absurd.

You can call them ridiculous all you want. The fact is, they work, and people pay attention to them.

I've tried to keep emphasizing that non-Master CFIs are *not* inferior in any way. The Master credential is simply a way of verifying and publicizing the work that a good teacher does.

Maybe I should start an organization similar to NAFI. I could charge $10 for annual re-certification and I could even send them a fancy certificate with a little gold seal on it. They could then use that to prove they are excellent, professional and talented instructors and use that qualification to prove it to prospective clients. What would make that new organization any less "correct" (for lack of a better term) than NAFI?

If all you're doing is taking money and sending out certificates, that would be a problem. There would be no quality control.

Having a set of eligibility requirements, an application process, and a board of review are what make the Master program worthwhile.
 
The Master CFI program is much like the academic doctorate program. There are many good teachers out there without doctorates, and there are a few with doctorates who should not be teaching. Getting your doctorate, however, does indicate that you are making a commitment to teaching and you are striving to improve your teaching skills and qualifications. Just as universities will normally turn to people with doctorates to teach, some organizations will sometimes turn to Master CFIs if they want something taught, especially if the CFI has specialized in a certain area of interest.
Again, I am not writing that someone without a Master CFI label is not a dedicated professional, just that those with the label normally are.
 
I looked at the two sites and all I could think about was, 'there has to be a great deal of money tied into this if they are going to these great lengths'. I don't know though, maybe it is a personal thing.
 
Ahhhhh, the drama. Maybe if there wasn't such a lucrative business selling the Master title, there wouldn't be a problem. Maybe I should ask the FAA for permission to sell a "Master" tailwheel endorsement and charge double.:nana2:
 
Ahhhhh, the drama. Maybe if there wasn't such a lucrative business selling the Master title, there wouldn't be a problem. Maybe I should ask the FAA for permission to sell a "Master" tailwheel endorsement and charge double.:nana2:

Exactly.

It's a business model, nothing more. . .and well. . .maybe a little bit less.

That's all she wrote folks.
 
You guys seriously think administrating the Master Instructor program is "lucrative"?

It's a $159 fee every two years. There are about 700 Masters nationwide.

That's about $55k/year gross.

Take out all of the expenses for postage, printing, having a booth at major events, taxes, etc. and I'd be shocked if it netted more than $30k/year income.

Even if 100% of that went to the administrators (which I don't think it does) we're talking about $15k per person (Sandy and JoAnn alone).

Since when did $15k become lucrative? I can name numerous ways to make $15k that are easier than administrating this program.



I think you guys are reading way too much in to this. I see the drama more as a personal power struggle / egos / people getting too attached to the program. I doubt it has much to do with money.
 
Ahhhhh, the drama. Maybe if there wasn't such a lucrative business selling the Master title, there wouldn't be a problem. Maybe I should ask the FAA for permission to sell a "Master" tailwheel endorsement and charge double.:nana2:
Who needs FAA permission?

Since when did $15k become lucrative?
For doing nothing? I'll take $15k for doing nothing, thank you very much.

I think you guys are reading way too much in to this. I see the drama more as a personal power struggle / egos / people getting too attached to the program. I doubt it has much to do with money.
Follow the money. Always.

-mini
 
Doing nothing? Hahaha...it doesn't sound like you've administrated much before.
I'm sorry, but digging graves or pouring concrete or working in a steel mill is working. Pencil pushing to me is doing nothing. Yes, I've done it before. Quite a bit.

-mini
 
I'm sorry, but digging graves or pouring concrete or working in a steel mill is working. Pencil pushing to me is doing nothing. Yes, I've done it before. Quite a bit.

Ok, another point we'll have to agree to disagree on then.

I just think it's comical that anyone would actually believe this whole debacle is over money. You guys are basing your ideas off what? A couple mediocre web sites and some gossip from other instructors on the internet? This is how conspiracy theories get started. And we all know how accurate conspiracy theories are.

When you look at the amount of money coming in versus the amount of work involved...well...money as a motivation makes no sense to me, and nobody has presented anything even remotely convincing here to sway me. Maybe when I see some evidence beyond some guy throwing out nebulous arguments like, "Follow the money," I'll reconsider. That's all.
 
Join a group, don't join a group. It is what you make it. I will say this about SAFE:
1. The board is elected by the members.
2. The board members are limited to two terms.
3. Elections are scheduled to be held annually with 1/3 of the board being replaced each year. The first election was just held with 1/3 of the board elected to one year terms, 1/3 to two year terms, 1/3 to three year terms.
4. The members just elected to the board are instructors with outstanding backgrounds. Many of those who were not elected are also well known and respected CFIs.
As such I feel this organization will be responsive to its members and will try to provide support to instructors with those things they feel are important. Will it be everything to everyone? No- no organization can be. But it appears it will be responsive to the things the majority of the members want and need and that it can legally provide.
 
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