The biggest difference is that if you attend an aviation college with an approved 141 program you can get an RATP at 1000 hrs. You have to weigh the cost benefit of not having to build those last 500 hours.In the grand scheme of things your looking at a 6 month delay in getting hired by a regional assuming you're instructing/working in an area that affords you to fly 100 hours in a month. To me that wasn't worth paying double or even triple for my degree/ratings.
My future as a pilot
- Thread starter Blake Lewis
- Start date
Jordan93
Well-Known Member
This. For me, it wasn't worth it. I got my BA in Economics and flew on the side. They only difference between my friends who went to Riddle, WMU, etc and me was I wasn't $100K in debt. We had the same ratings and they made it to a regional just a few months before I did.
SeanD
Well-Known Member
I can guarantee you it has absolutely no impact on regional hiring what so ever. If the applicant has the qualifying time and a clean criminal history, they're likely getting hired. The regionals don't give two craps how you achieved your times or where as long as you have them. Especially now.
"Hmm, yah know, this fella has 1,501 TT but he didn't go to UND. I've heard bad things. DIDNT YOU READ THAT STUDY? We'll have to pass"
Said no regional HR department in 2017 ever.
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Hiboglossi
The Most Depressing Person
This is important to consider. There is a common misconception that you can qualify for a Restricted ATP certificate at 1,000 hours total time by attending any 141 school. The college itself, the degree, the part 141 program, and the individual courses must all be approved. The 141 school must also be associated with the college issuing the degree. For the Restricted ATP at 1000 total time, you must have an approved bachelors degree with at least 60 credit hours' approved coursework; with an approved associates or bachelors degree and at least 30 hours' approved coursework you can qualify for a Restricted ATP at 1,250 hours total time.
Even if you don't meet any of those education or flight training requirements you can get a Restricted ATP at 1,500 hours TT but with only 200 hours of cross-country instead of the 500 required for an unrestricted ATP. I believe the night time requirement is reduced as well.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.160
Being eligible for a restricted ATP at only 1,000 TT would certainly be an advantage, since you could potentially go to the airlines a few months to a year sooner, and seniority is everything in the airlines. However if you would have to take on too much more debt to achieve this it probably wouldn't be worth it. It is a cost-benefit analysis you will have to make for yourself. Keep in mind there is no guarantee that the airlines will be hiring at all when you graduate; or that low-time flying job employers like flight schools and aerial survey companies will be hiring. The pilot hiring climate tends to be either feast or famine and it can change quickly; even if the airlines are hiring their minimums could be greater than the minimum to qualify for an ATP as that has been the case in the past. It all depends on how easy it is for them to hire as many pilots as they need.
No night relief, but there is relief from the age 23 requirement.
F
Flying Saluki
Guest
Yes, let's disregard what the research shows. "I know what makes a good pilot dammit!"
In all seriousness, it's a limited study; too limited to base practice on, but hopefully will serve as a springboard for more research in the future.
I'd be really interested to see research in flight instruction methods. To my knowledge there hasn't been any research in best practices in flight instruction; i.e. is there a sequence of instruction that produces the best results more rapidly than other methods?
Bear
Well-Known Member
trash it, bash it, ignore it, call it 'dribble crap', these 'cut and pasted' conclusions are consistent.
For Immediate Release from the Regional Airline Association.
http://www.raa.org/news/278852/New-...-Need-for-New-and-More-Effective-Pathways.htm March 8, 2016
New Independent Population Study commissioned by the Pilot Supply Summit of 2015
Highlights Urgent Need for New and More Effective Pathways for Part 121 Pilot Qualifications
Regional Airline Association Calls for Additional Alternative Pathways to Boost Aviation Safety
Highlights:
• Phase IV of the Pilot Source Study proves an urgent need for additional and reengineered
training pathways that restore airline access to highly competent pilots.
• The study provides compelling, empirical evidence indicating hours in flight cannot be viewed as
a proxy for experience or competency.
• Pilots with fewer than 1500 hours had fewer non-completions, required less extra initial training
and less extra recurrent training.
• Pilots with more than 4500 hours had more non-completions.
• Pilots with hours-in-flight between 1500 and 3000 required more extra recurrent training.
• Pilots hired after August 1, 2013 had a 9.87% increase in initial training non-completions.
Today, the Pilot Supply Summit of 2015 released Phase IV of its commissioned Pilot Source Study (PSS), a population study that represents the single most comprehensive study of regional airline hiring and training that has ever been accomplished. The study evaluated pre-hire experience and training performance of regional airline pilots before and after implementation of the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) 2013 First Officer Qualifications (FOQ) regulations. The study concluded that a pilot’s pre-hire experience directly influenced his or her success in regional airline training programs.
Among the report’s conclusions was a concerning confirmation that pilots entering the workforce with high hours in flight required the most additional training once hired. New hire pilots with high hours in flight also failed or dropped out of airline training programs (referred to as non-completions in the study) at the highest rates. This study’s outcome validates observations from regional airline training departments. The study shows that pilots with higher hours in flight, whose flying time is often unstructured, are faring worse in airline training programs than their lower time counterparts.
Phase IV of the Pilot Source Study shows pilots from recent restricted ATP (R-ATP) backgrounds perform significantly better in training than pilots with higher hours in flight. Therefore, these R-ATP pathways should be supported and expanded. The study stands as firm evidence that reconnecting the pilot pipeline is not merely an economic imperative; it is a critical step in continuing the advancement of aviation safety.
Recently, the Regional Airline Association (RAA) unveiled an airline-based R-ATP pathway called the Air Carrier Enhanced Part 121 Training Program, or the ACE R-ATP. The ACE R-ATP is more than a training program, it is a restricted ATP pathway, intended to work within the established regulatory framework and meet the mandates and objectives of Congress. The ACE R-ATP proposes to restore access to highly skilled aviators, offering an enhanced pathway to the commercial airline cockpit through a structured combination of flight time, mentoring, and specific competencies—ultimately offering a higher level of safety than existing regulations. RAA’s ACE R-ATP pathway was formed through the collaborative efforts of regional and major airline training experts, drawing on hundreds of years of collective training expertise, and melded with various recommendations from other stakeholders. The proposal also includes advisory guidance from the FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).
Stated RAA President, Faye Malarkey Black: “The ACE R-ATP addresses, head-on, a key finding that the industry is currently forced to engage in remedial training of newly-hired pilots, especially of those pilots hired with high flight hours.” As an alternative, the ACE R-ATP envisions structure and discipline for new pilots, providing new and additional elements of pilot screening, training, and support at critical phases in their professional development.
While the proposal comes at a time when the current pilot shortage has led to service disruptions and air service reductions at airports across the nation, Black emphasizes the ACE R-ATP pathway is a safety-first measure. “The ACE R-ATP will reconnect the pilot pipeline and restore career certainty to the profession,” she said. “More importantly, the ACE-R-ATP pathway will materially advance safety by allowing airlines to hire the most proficient pilots and support them through a comprehensive program designed to provide additional, airline-based structure, oversight, and training.”
Regional airlines are already making unprecedented investments in the next generation of professional pilots, yet pathways like the ACE R-ATP are needed to restore airlines’ ability to recruit and support the most proficient pilot candidates. Black concluded: “Our program seeks to provide an enhanced pathway for training and oversight while increasing the accessibility of aviation as a career choice. We are confident it will deliver squarely on these objectives, ensuring our nation’s skies remain the safest.”
This phase of the Pilot Source Study was commissioned by the Pilot Supply Summit of 2015 and executed on by Drs. Guy Smith, of Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, and Elizabeth Bjerke, of University of North Dakota, who are the co-principal investigators. They worked with five Ph.D.s from different institutions who are participating in the data analysis: Dr. Thomas Carney, Purdue University; Dr. Cody Christenson, South Dakota State University; Dr. Paul Craig, Middle Tennessee State University; Dr. Mary Niemczyk, Arizona State University; and Dr. MaryJo Smith, Ypsilon Associates. The update includes data from the training records of over 7,000 pilots hired since August 1, 2013.
Earlier phases of the Pilot Source Study influenced the Airline Safety and Federal Aviation Administration Extension Act of 2010, which resulted in the First Officer Qualifications (FOQ) regulations issued by the FAA. Under these regulations, all air carrier first officers must hold an Air Transport Pilot (ATP) certificate or a restricted ATP certificate. Additionally, earlier phases helped establish the “restricted privileges ATP (R-ATP) certificate,” pathways, enabling pilots from certain structured backgrounds to operate as first officers by allowing the FAA to approve credit toward flight hours.
The Regional Airline Association did not contribute to or pay for any elements of this report.
Note: An earlier version of this statement identified Phase IV of the Pilot Source Study as an AABI report. While AABI supported the research that went into the report’s findings, the report itself was commissioned and executed by the Pilot Supply Summit of 2015.
The full Pilot Source Study and information about the Pilot Supply Summit can be accessed here www.pilotsourcestudy.org
About RAA
The Regional Airline Association (RAA) provides a unified voice of advocacy for North American regional airlines aimed at promoting a safe, reliable, and robust regional airline industry. The RAA serves as an important support network connecting regional airlines, industry business partners, and government regulators in bolstering the industry; as well as promoting regional airline interests in a changing business and policy environment. With more than 11,200 regional airline flights every day, regional airlines operate 45 percent of the nation's commercial schedule.
For Immediate Release from the Regional Airline Association.
http://www.raa.org/news/278852/New-...-Need-for-New-and-More-Effective-Pathways.htm March 8, 2016
New Independent Population Study commissioned by the Pilot Supply Summit of 2015
Highlights Urgent Need for New and More Effective Pathways for Part 121 Pilot Qualifications
Regional Airline Association Calls for Additional Alternative Pathways to Boost Aviation Safety
Highlights:
• Phase IV of the Pilot Source Study proves an urgent need for additional and reengineered
training pathways that restore airline access to highly competent pilots.
• The study provides compelling, empirical evidence indicating hours in flight cannot be viewed as
a proxy for experience or competency.
• Pilots with fewer than 1500 hours had fewer non-completions, required less extra initial training
and less extra recurrent training.
• Pilots with more than 4500 hours had more non-completions.
• Pilots with hours-in-flight between 1500 and 3000 required more extra recurrent training.
• Pilots hired after August 1, 2013 had a 9.87% increase in initial training non-completions.
Today, the Pilot Supply Summit of 2015 released Phase IV of its commissioned Pilot Source Study (PSS), a population study that represents the single most comprehensive study of regional airline hiring and training that has ever been accomplished. The study evaluated pre-hire experience and training performance of regional airline pilots before and after implementation of the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) 2013 First Officer Qualifications (FOQ) regulations. The study concluded that a pilot’s pre-hire experience directly influenced his or her success in regional airline training programs.
Among the report’s conclusions was a concerning confirmation that pilots entering the workforce with high hours in flight required the most additional training once hired. New hire pilots with high hours in flight also failed or dropped out of airline training programs (referred to as non-completions in the study) at the highest rates. This study’s outcome validates observations from regional airline training departments. The study shows that pilots with higher hours in flight, whose flying time is often unstructured, are faring worse in airline training programs than their lower time counterparts.
Phase IV of the Pilot Source Study shows pilots from recent restricted ATP (R-ATP) backgrounds perform significantly better in training than pilots with higher hours in flight. Therefore, these R-ATP pathways should be supported and expanded. The study stands as firm evidence that reconnecting the pilot pipeline is not merely an economic imperative; it is a critical step in continuing the advancement of aviation safety.
Recently, the Regional Airline Association (RAA) unveiled an airline-based R-ATP pathway called the Air Carrier Enhanced Part 121 Training Program, or the ACE R-ATP. The ACE R-ATP is more than a training program, it is a restricted ATP pathway, intended to work within the established regulatory framework and meet the mandates and objectives of Congress. The ACE R-ATP proposes to restore access to highly skilled aviators, offering an enhanced pathway to the commercial airline cockpit through a structured combination of flight time, mentoring, and specific competencies—ultimately offering a higher level of safety than existing regulations. RAA’s ACE R-ATP pathway was formed through the collaborative efforts of regional and major airline training experts, drawing on hundreds of years of collective training expertise, and melded with various recommendations from other stakeholders. The proposal also includes advisory guidance from the FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).
Stated RAA President, Faye Malarkey Black: “The ACE R-ATP addresses, head-on, a key finding that the industry is currently forced to engage in remedial training of newly-hired pilots, especially of those pilots hired with high flight hours.” As an alternative, the ACE R-ATP envisions structure and discipline for new pilots, providing new and additional elements of pilot screening, training, and support at critical phases in their professional development.
While the proposal comes at a time when the current pilot shortage has led to service disruptions and air service reductions at airports across the nation, Black emphasizes the ACE R-ATP pathway is a safety-first measure. “The ACE R-ATP will reconnect the pilot pipeline and restore career certainty to the profession,” she said. “More importantly, the ACE-R-ATP pathway will materially advance safety by allowing airlines to hire the most proficient pilots and support them through a comprehensive program designed to provide additional, airline-based structure, oversight, and training.”
Regional airlines are already making unprecedented investments in the next generation of professional pilots, yet pathways like the ACE R-ATP are needed to restore airlines’ ability to recruit and support the most proficient pilot candidates. Black concluded: “Our program seeks to provide an enhanced pathway for training and oversight while increasing the accessibility of aviation as a career choice. We are confident it will deliver squarely on these objectives, ensuring our nation’s skies remain the safest.”
This phase of the Pilot Source Study was commissioned by the Pilot Supply Summit of 2015 and executed on by Drs. Guy Smith, of Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, and Elizabeth Bjerke, of University of North Dakota, who are the co-principal investigators. They worked with five Ph.D.s from different institutions who are participating in the data analysis: Dr. Thomas Carney, Purdue University; Dr. Cody Christenson, South Dakota State University; Dr. Paul Craig, Middle Tennessee State University; Dr. Mary Niemczyk, Arizona State University; and Dr. MaryJo Smith, Ypsilon Associates. The update includes data from the training records of over 7,000 pilots hired since August 1, 2013.
Earlier phases of the Pilot Source Study influenced the Airline Safety and Federal Aviation Administration Extension Act of 2010, which resulted in the First Officer Qualifications (FOQ) regulations issued by the FAA. Under these regulations, all air carrier first officers must hold an Air Transport Pilot (ATP) certificate or a restricted ATP certificate. Additionally, earlier phases helped establish the “restricted privileges ATP (R-ATP) certificate,” pathways, enabling pilots from certain structured backgrounds to operate as first officers by allowing the FAA to approve credit toward flight hours.
The Regional Airline Association did not contribute to or pay for any elements of this report.
Note: An earlier version of this statement identified Phase IV of the Pilot Source Study as an AABI report. While AABI supported the research that went into the report’s findings, the report itself was commissioned and executed by the Pilot Supply Summit of 2015.
The full Pilot Source Study and information about the Pilot Supply Summit can be accessed here www.pilotsourcestudy.org
About RAA
The Regional Airline Association (RAA) provides a unified voice of advocacy for North American regional airlines aimed at promoting a safe, reliable, and robust regional airline industry. The RAA serves as an important support network connecting regional airlines, industry business partners, and government regulators in bolstering the industry; as well as promoting regional airline interests in a changing business and policy environment. With more than 11,200 regional airline flights every day, regional airlines operate 45 percent of the nation's commercial schedule.
A Life Aloft
Well-Known Member
Besides being a clueless troll who has no business even being in these threads because he cannot offer any real/actual advice based on experience and first hand knowledge, who also has no idea what he's talking about, (oh wait he isn't saying anything because he cant - he's just cutting and pasting what he finds on the internet with no thoughts of his own), the only thing he's ever flown is one of these:
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pete2800
'Member?
There's no way that thing is going to fly well with that kind of elevator deflection. I've only made a few hundred thousand of those in my life.
Bear
Well-Known Member
complete violation of all the physical laws of flight, weight and balance, center of gravity and structural considerations. Look at the symmetry, the folds and lines are not identical and properly aligned.
Clearly zero attention to detail, as it has been said before, just winging it doesn't hack it.
FL350
Well-Known Member
I was in a similar position at your age, and I always dreamed of flying. I majored in business and did all my training part 61, and now fly for a regional.
While I was in school I worked a side job and flew as much as I could, I found a flight school that rented 150's fairly cheap. Then spent time hanging around the airport, making friends with other pilots and getting more opportunities to fly, got my cfi senior year and then got a 135 job through a connection I made at the airport.
I'd recommend to keep on your track and fly as much as possible
While I was in school I worked a side job and flew as much as I could, I found a flight school that rented 150's fairly cheap. Then spent time hanging around the airport, making friends with other pilots and getting more opportunities to fly, got my cfi senior year and then got a 135 job through a connection I made at the airport.
I'd recommend to keep on your track and fly as much as possible
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
Yaaaaaay.
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
Nark
Macho Superpilot
He would have an aneurysm.....
Are you really trying to say that research done by the big Aviation colleges is not going to be biased? I think real world experience trumps a biased study any day.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
Any discussion about this should consider the fact that, by the time you're "qualified" (by which- and whatever means), the industry may be in a radically different place than it was when you started, and perhaps the minimum requirements to be a First Officer at X Airlines, Inc., may again be more than ATP eligibility and a pulse.