Multi-Engine Time Building

[Polar742]

<long post>

Joe

In a former life, I flew with quite a few GIA pilots that did the program there. Most were Captains at GIA also. This was 2003 and on time frame. The flying was even on routes they flew at GIA.

None of them impressed me. I'd rank their performance pretty low on the overall spectrum. Did they do the job? Yes. However, it was far from most FOs with CFI backgrounds or a university education, or people who just did Part 61 schools.

There was an overwhelming sense of entitlement and an elevated level of self-evaluated performance.

I was not impressed.

 

[CFI A&P]

^ seriously, what's your job title there?

Either you went there, you work there, or you're trolling. A bit too much cheerleading in that last post.

:yup:

Go ahead and take the plunge at GIA. Operations like this are why the regionals pay as low as they do.

In my professional experience, inside aviation and outside aviation, I have ALWAYS been paid during my training. Even when I enlisted in the military, still getting paid while being screamed at by the drill instructors. Oh, and also getting paid while attending all the "A" and "C" schools required for the job. Other jobs that I have had that included pay during my training period included: mechanic (aviation and automotive), law enforcement (a rookie fresh out the academy is getting paid during the ride-a-longs), a few trades (plumber, & electrician)... This is aviation, have to have a plan B, C, and D.

We all paid for our flight training. This isn't the same, you're paying them for a flying position. The money you'll earn is just a little bit of reverse psychology to help you feel better about the well equipped mid-size sedan you just gave them.

Good luck.

 

[LV-ARG]

I was in Daytona yesterday and there is a school there with a twin Duchess with some pretty good prices on multi engine time building. It was $105 per hour dry if you have the coupon code ultimate010. This is total per plane--not per pilot. If you split it then it gets real reasonable.

To be honest, I haven't seen it this cheap in a long time.

The name of the school is Ultimate Air and the phone number is 386-631-0356.

Joe

Quick question. Can both pilots log time? The only two methods I can think of are: Flying under the hood (so the other guy can log SIC?) OR having someone with an MEI that is willing to split the cost of the flight hour.

Is this what you mean when you say "you can split the cost"?

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

I couldn't agree more with CFI A&P.

While I'm a nice guy, I help people out, I'm willing to make some sacrafices to get a head etc. etc. I am the most professional of professionals and I expect to be paid for my services.

If I could change one thing about the aviation industry (besides having a 100% safety record), I would change the attitude and desperation of the pilots to fly something that makes a lot of noise. Not the CEOs, not the annoyed 135 schedulers that want you to fly into the jaws of a demon, not broken down busted airplanes with no GPS, not first year regional pay. Just a more professional self respecting pilot group thats willing to wait their turn, build their experience and doesn't have a massive sense of self-entitlement.

Enough "omg but its multi jet-time lol!" and no more PFT please. Just get your MEI and get your multi-time like everyone else.

:beer:

 

[RICHARD5]

A pilot with A&P is golden to many employers yet I don't hear the hue and cry that such a pilot is being exploited for having the A&P. The A&P is every bit as worthy as any pilot cert. And an employer should expect to make commensurate compensation. And pilots should demand that to the same measure as demanding no PFT and the like.

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

Quick question. Can both pilots log time? The only two methods I can think of are: Flying under the hood (so the other guy can log SIC?) OR having someone with an MEI that is willing to split the cost of the flight hour.

Is this what you mean when you say "you can split the cost"?

You can split the cost anyway that you can find that it is legal.

The way I understand it is that cross country time can not be logged by both pilots but other time can.

However I guess you could split the time with an MEI and both log cross country.

I'm sure some others will chime in with some creative ways to make this work.

Joe



Joe

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

:yup:

Go ahead and take the plunge at GIA. Operations like this are why the regionals pay as low as they do.

I'm calling BS on that one.

That's simply true. Airline pay is low because the pilots already at the airlines VOTE IN a contract that allows low starting pay.

Then some of those same pilots complain how crappy the starting pay is in the airline industry.

Wanna stop low pay at the airlines? Get the current pilots, at those airlines, to stop voting into these ridiculous (poverty wage) starting wages into the contracts.

The pilots applying for the jobs have no control over the wages and neither does Gulfstream.

Joe

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

In a former life, I flew with quite a few GIA pilots that did the program there. Most were Captains at GIA also. This was 2003 and on time frame. The flying was even on routes they flew at GIA.

None of them impressed me. I'd rank their performance pretty low on the overall spectrum. Did they do the job? Yes. However, it was far from most FOs with CFI backgrounds or a university education, or people who just did Part 61 schools.

There was an overwhelming sense of entitlement and an elevated level of self-evaluated performance.

I was not impressed.

Coming from an all part 61 background myself as well as having a university education, I appreciate your comments.

However I can not agree with them because this simply can not be true and we all know it.

What if you got all of your ratings at a part 61 school and then went to Gulfstream for the multi hour program? Would you then become less proficient?

Joe

 

[mshunter]

Coming from an all part 61 background myself as well as having a university education, I appreciate your comments.

However I can not agree with them because this simply can not be true and we all know it.

What if you got all of your ratings at a part 61 school and then went to Gulfstream for the multi hour program? Would you then become less proficient?

Joe

Joe, just step away from the shovel.

 

[gne in prog]

joe, there is no way you would try and make the case that gulfstream is paying the pilots if you didn't have skin in the game. someone gives gulfstream over 32k, and then that person gets around 4700 of it back. how is that comparable to how the other regionals are paying?

your listing of airline fines would be a lot more relevant if you put it in context of fine to revenue, fine to number of operations, or possibly fine to number of aircraft.

in one thread you are telling someone not to drop 3k on a cfi/ii because there are no students around. in this thread 32k+ is a good idea to you, despite the lack of jobs for someone who buys 250 hours of sic, put the gear up and down time.

if you think that is a good deal, i'm glad i'm not open minded like you.

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

joe, there is no way you would try and make the case that gulfstream is paying the pilots if you didn't have skin in the game. someone gives gulfstream over 32k, and then that person gets around 4700 of it back. how is that comparable to how the other regionals are paying?

I'm not sure I understand the comment or the question. If you are asking if I have skin in the game, I can assure you that I do not. Last time I checked Gulfstream's prices were less than $32,000.00, but I haven't had any reason to check them lately.

your listing of airline fines would be a lot more relevant if you put it in context of fine to revenue, fine to number of operations, or possibly fine to number of aircraft.

All I can do is list the total fines as they are listed with the FAA. Someone brought out Gulfstream was fined by the FAA. All I was pointing out is that almost all airlines have been fined by the FAA.

in one thread you are telling someone not to drop 3k on a cfi/ii because there are no students around. in this thread 32k+ is a good idea to you, despite the lack of jobs for someone who buys 250 hours of sic, put the gear up and down time.

Well that's not exactly what I said or meant to say and I'm sorry if you took it that way. On the CFI thing, I didn't tell him not to do it. I suggested he wait until the current market for CFI turns around and to keep his day job. When the market turns around then take the 30 days and get your CFI. I don't believe that is bad advice.

The CFI's that I have spoken with lately aren't even making what the fry cook at McDonalds is earning. The CFI's really get the royal screw job in this business these days. Who makes the money off of these CFI's? Think about it.

On the Gulfstream thing, I have not told anyone to do it. However, since you brought it up, it's my considered opinion that if someone needs 250 hours of multi engine time then Gulfstream is about as good of a place as any to get it. It's also the cheapest place that I know of at this time.

Should a pilot do it? If they absolutely know that they will need that multi time to get hired by a company on their target list, then yes they should do it. If they won't need the multi time then no they should not do it.

I'm not looking at Gulfstream as a job like most of you seem to be doing. I'm looking at Gulfstream as an advanced pilot training program whereby a pilot can obtain 250 hours of multi experience, in an airline environment, and then leave just like you do at any other flight training progam.

if you think that is a good deal, i'm glad i'm not open minded like you.

After running the numbers, I really do believe this is a good deal if you need the 250 multi hours. If you don't need the 250 multi hours then it would be a complete waste of money.

It sucks to have to pay for flight training and flight time, but unfortunately that is the way it is. Flight training costs have continued to increase since the days when I was first working on my license. It never gets any cheaper per hour. It always goes up. Remember we all are working for the oil companies these days.

Joe

 

[Nihon_Ni]

In the interest of fairness...

In my professional experience, inside aviation and outside aviation, I have ALWAYS been paid during my training. Even when I enlisted in the military...

We all paid for our flight training. This isn't the same, you're paying them for a flying position...

Good luck.

Perhaps a review of the definition of the word "always" is in order:

always ('ol-wēz, -wəz)
adv 1. without exception; on every occasion; every time he always arrives on time
2. continually; repeatedly
3. in any case you could always take a day off work
4. Informal for ever; without end

To say you ALWAYS got paid during training, then admit you paid for your flight training negates your previous statement. Besides, of the examples you cited, weren't there training requirements you had to complete to make you eligible to apply? For example, the military required you to graduate high school, take a physical, maybe even pass a physical fitness test. Unless you had a different experience than me, they didn't pay for all of these things that were required to be eligible to draw the first pay check.

Bottom line, it's still PFT/PFJ. And the main reason why the regionals pay poverty wages.

So if GIA wasn't around everyone at the regionals would have better pay? Really?

I'm sure the bean counters at the airlines have figured what it would take, money wise, to keep their guys just off of food stamps/welfare if they are to sit reserve all mont, and only make their gaurentee.

Seriously? Do you really think there's a giant conspiracy to make pilots work for wages that are just high enough that they don't qualify for food stamps? It has nothing with the evil schemes of dastardly management, it has everything to do with supply and demand. If folks would stop lining up for pilot jobs airlines would be forced to pay more to entice workers. You can't stand in line for a job and complain about how badly it pays.

I've listened to everything you guys have said and frankly I can't find any of it holds water other than you all are just mad at this place...So far none of you have not come up with any reasonable alternative to the 280 multi engine hours you get at Gulfstream at anywhere close to the price that Gulfstream offers those 280 hours for.

You haven't listened closely enough...

Enough "omg but its multi jet-time lol!" and no more PFT please. Just get your MEI and get your multi-time like everyone else.

There's something to be said for the old school method.

The A&P is every bit as worthy as any pilot cert. And an employer should expect to make commensurate compensation. And pilots should demand that to the same measure as demanding no PFT and the like.

Very true. Pilots can't expect employers to place value on something they don't value themselves.

I don't see how Gulfstream is that much different from ATP's Airline Career Pilot Program. Zero to hero for only $54,990 with a "Guaranteed Instructor Job Placement - At the completion of your Fast Track Airline Career Pilot Program"

After graduating from the Airline Career Pilot Program, your next step is to build experience and flight time as a flight instructor with ATP. As a Fast Track graduate, you receive guaranteed instructor job placement for 6 months, earning approximately $2,000 per month in ATP’s network of 22 training centers nationwide.

If my math skills haven't failed: $54,990 - $12,000 = $42,990. Isn't this the same as PFJ?

The problem with this whole discussion is that people have a PFT/don't PFJ bias based on their own experience. Folks generally draw a line in the sand based on what they did, and anyone who pays for more training than they did is "lowering the bar" and "destroying the industry" or similar sentiments. This line of reasoning is based on the false premise that pay is related to how much training someone is willing to cover. It's not. Pay is related to what people consider their time to be worth and how much compensation they demand when they sell their time. Don't sign up to sell your time for a certain amount and then complain about it not being enough, or someone else's actions lowering your worth. Everyone decides their worth on their own. If you didn't think you were being paid what you were worth, you wouldn't be working there.

Personally, I think everyone could learn a lot from reading what Robert Kiyosaki learned about working for free from both his rich dad and his poor dad. It just might change your life.

 

[Maurus]

Well I have good news (even thought he thread went a little off track).

Because of some of my past actions, I am on the insurance with my measly 19.5 hours multi. Looks like I have a new job!

 

[gne in prog]

Well I have good news (even thought he thread went a little off track).

Because of some of my past actions, I am on the insurance with my measly 19.5 hours multi. Looks like I have a new job!

Congratulations. That's one less problem.

 

[Muff3n]

Well I have good news (even thought he thread went a little off track).

Because of some of my past actions, I am on the insurance with my measly 19.5 hours multi. Looks like I have a new job!

This is awesome news, now you don't have to worry about anything!

 

[mshunter]

So if GIA wasn't around everyone at the regionals would have better pay? Really?

Yes, thats what I think. Why pay someone a decent wage, when people are climbing all over each other for the chance, and some even pay for the chance. Simple. Supply and demand. As you state in yur next quote.

Seriously? Do you really think there's a giant conspiracy to make pilots work for wages that are just high enough that they don't qualify for food stamps? It has nothing with the evil schemes of dastardly management, it has everything to do with supply and demand. If folks would stop lining up for pilot jobs airlines would be forced to pay more to entice workers. You can't stand in line for a job and complain about how badly it pays.

You can call it a conspiracy. I call it saving face/CYA. Imagine the media debacle if, say, FOX or CNN got ahold of information that "OMGZ! Airline piletz iz on food stampz!!!" How well do you think that would be for the airlines buisness as a whole? I'm not talking just about people buying tickets, I'm talking about as a whole (stocks, investors, etc.)


P.S. I'm standing in no 121 lines because I more than likely would qualify, or darn close for food stamps. And why would I take a huge pay cut.

 

[XLR99]

Well I have good news (even thought he thread went a little off track).

Because of some of my past actions, I am on the insurance with my measly 19.5 hours multi. Looks like I have a new job!

Congrats!!

 

[Polar742]

Coming from an all part 61 background myself as well as having a university education, I appreciate your comments.

However I can not agree with them because this simply can not be true and we all know it.

What if you got all of your ratings at a part 61 school and then went to Gulfstream for the multi hour program? Would you then become less proficient?

Joe

I'm telling you the pilots I flew with that all had prior GIA experience (some did from ground-up, and some came in from other schools and paid to be FOs) were poor performers in comparison to other pilots.

I really don't care where an individual did their training. You can either perform, or you can't. Looking at the performance from an overall perspective, as a whole, they were pretty poor performers.

This was judged in day-to-day line operations in Florida. I definitely would have expected a much better overall performance from individuals who had so much turboprop and line experience. They were out performed by individuals with NO turboprop or 121/135 time on a consistent basis.

 

[tjvpa28]

So far none of you have not come up with any reasonable alternative to the 280 multi engine hours you get at Gulfstream at anywhere close to the price that Gulfstream offers those 280 hours for.


At this point, Gulfstream is the least expensive way to get multi time that I can find. If any of you know of available and less expensive multi time than Gulfstream, then I'm listening.

How about $2000 for an MEI rating then get paid to build that 280 hours of multi time, and have your self respect at the end of the day?

 

[elmetal]

How about $2000 for an MEI rating then get paid to build that 280 hours of multi time, and have your self respect at the end of the day?

But but but but you won't get it as fast!!!!



I don't even have my commercial yet but the idea of pay to play in any industry screams of oversupply and businesses taking advantage of that (as a profit maximizing business should)