Multi-Engine Time Building

[DE727UPS]

"How much is the hanger/tie down, the upkeep and the insurance on that Apache?"

Insurance cost me 2K a year. YMMV. Tiedown (you don't need a hangar) is negligible. "Upkeep", can vary from very little to a lot. I've honestly spent very little on unexpected things, but you never know. The plane was built in 1958 but the last mechanic to do a pre-buy on it said it was the nicest Apache he'd ever seen, and he used to own one.

"Teachers have apprenticeship programs. Cops have apprenticeship programs. Retail organizations have apprenticeship programs. Lawyers have apprenticeship programs. Even FAA examiners have apprenticeship programs. But pilots don't have apprenticeship programs, yet we expect them to magically gain the proper experience to fly passengers or cargo around."

Totally off base. If these people are doing apprenticeships then I would suggest they are working ALONGSIDE a qualified person to gain experience to do the job by themselves. The PIC of a 121 doesn't need an unqualified apprentice to sit next to him. The industry and the FAA demands something better. I demand a well qualified F/O that can contribute to keeping my butt out of trouble and actually fly the jet as well as me in a normal operation. While a 121 Capt is always a teacher, a 121 Capt shouldn't be forced train an "apprentice" with paying pax in the back. You wanna go there, tell the pax in the back the the copilot is just an apprentice at this airline and then pay all the Capts time and a half for training. Even that doesn't make it safe....but it might make it fair....

"I believe Pan Am and TWA used to train outside folks in their training centers for $$$ back in their day."

I like your qualifier of "you believe". That means you don't really know but you'd like to throw it out as a fact. In fact, I'd like to see your proof. I've been in the biz since the time where these were both proud airlines. Both these airlines had type rating programs for qualified pilots but neither did Gulfstream style PFJ or ran a flight school. There is a big difference between doing type ratings in big Boeing's and putting 250 hour pilots into the right seat. And even then, back in those days, a new hire went to the 727 panel to learn the ropes. I spent 4 years on the panel and it was a great way learn how things work in the pointy end of a jet.

Joe, I'm getting the impression you're a recruiter for Gulfstream. Are you?

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

"

Joe, I'm getting the impression you're a recruiter for Gulfstream. Are you?

I've never set foot in the place. This discussion started out as someone wanting to build multi engine time.

I put up the name of a school that I did set foot in yesterday in Daytona that I found to have cheap multi time. It's a small school with five planes run by a guy that seems sincere enough.

Someone else put up the name of another school in Daytona with cheap multi time.

Then someone brought up Gulfstream.

Then I ran the numbers and discovered Gulfstream is much cheaper than the cheapest multi time that at least two of us can find. I ran the Gulfstream time at 250 hours. When I later went to their website I found that you actually get 280 hours. So the cost is even less expensive per hour than I originally calculated. Now it's down to about $83 an hour.

I've never run the numbers before and I was kind of surprised that Gulfstream came out much cheaper than anything I can find.

I asked for others to come up with a cheaper solution for the 250 hours. You came up with selling your 1958 Apache to someone and let them time build in it. It's not a bad idea, it just takes money to do it. As you know there is a monthly cost to owning a plane that you can not get away from. And if something breaks, it could cost thousands of dollars to fix.

I'm just trying to understand why everyone seems to be so set against Gulfstream except 2000+ pilots that have gone there. There has never had an accident in their First Officer Program while they were flying at Gulfstream. So it can't be a safety thing.

The cost per multi engine hour is less than any other training facility that I can find. So it can't be the cost.

One would possibly believe that low time 250 hour pilots would cause a lot of crashes. But that is simply not true at Gulfstream. They haven't had any crashes since they started 17 years ago. Does that mean low time pilots are safer? Or does it mean they have more supervision? Or does it just not matter or mean anything?

At other airlines, the pilots that have been involved in crashed passenger airplanes had thousands of hours. Does that mean we should worry about pilots with 3500 hours more than those pilots that have just 250 hours?

From my calculations, the numbers support Gulfstream anyway you want to add them up.

That may be unpleasant to those that want to believe otherwise. But we should be approaching this business as a business and not make decisions based on our emotions.

Joe

 

[swisspilot]

So my new employer is willing to pay for time to get me flying his aircraft (insurance sucks). Looking for a minimum of 40-50 hours but if there is a good time building package out there as far and price and aircraft safety we will probably buy more.

Anyone know good places for some quick time building?

BTW I only have time in a Seneca II and PA-23-180.

What airplane does your employer has?

My boss got a Seneca II, Insurance asked 25 hours on type or bigger, I had about 60 hours on a PA44.

Flying our own Seneca was around 200 dollars/hour

 

[Zondaracer]

The reason Gulfstream is so "cheap" is because they SHOULD be PAYING YOU. Not the other way around. It is a part 121 operation carrying PAYING passengers. That is why it is PFJ

 

[CFI A&P]

Gulfstream is a very bad idea. I recently met someone who did this program, it worked well for him till he needed to find another flying job. He's been out of work (been working outside aviation) for three years. He gets interviews, but is never offered a job. Could be how he interviews or other factors, but I think it's because he has Gulfstream on his resume.

Do some more research, Gulfstream Airlines was recently awarded a nice fine by the FAA.

They should be paying you! Bottom line. It's a 121 operation, how many pilots for other airlines are paying the airline to fly the airplane?

Does a plumber pay you to work on your house?

Does a police officer pay you to patrol your house?

Does a school bus driver pay the school board to drive their busses?

After all, the plumber needs experience to get his journeyman's card right? The police officer needs experience to get Sgt. right?

Are you seeing the problem yet?

 

[slough]

"How much is the hanger/tie down, the upkeep and the insurance on that Apache?"

Insurance cost me 2K a year. YMMV. Tiedown (you don't need a hangar) is negligible. "Upkeep", can vary from very little to a lot. I've honestly spent very little on unexpected things, but you never know. The plane was built in 1958 but the last mechanic to do a pre-buy on it said it was the nicest Apache he'd ever seen, and he used to own one.

"Teachers have apprenticeship programs. Cops have apprenticeship programs. Retail organizations have apprenticeship programs. Lawyers have apprenticeship programs. Even FAA examiners have apprenticeship programs. But pilots don't have apprenticeship programs, yet we expect them to magically gain the proper experience to fly passengers or cargo around."

Totally off base. If these people are doing apprenticeships then I would suggest they are working ALONGSIDE a qualified person to gain experience to do the job by themselves. The PIC of a 121 doesn't need an unqualified apprentice to sit next to him. The industry and the FAA demands something better. I demand a well qualified F/O that can contribute to keeping my butt out of trouble and actually fly the jet as well as me in a normal operation. While a 121 Capt is always a teacher, a 121 Capt shouldn't be forced train an "apprentice" with paying pax in the back. You wanna go there, tell the pax in the back the the copilot is just an apprentice at this airline and then pay all the Capts time and a half for training. Even that doesn't make it safe....but it might make it fair....

"I believe Pan Am and TWA used to train outside folks in their training centers for $$$ back in their day."

I like your qualifier of "you believe". That means you don't really know but you'd like to throw it out as a fact. In fact, I'd like to see your proof. I've been in the biz since the time where these were both proud airlines. Both these airlines had type rating programs for qualified pilots but neither did Gulfstream style PFJ or ran a flight school. There is a big difference between doing type ratings in big Boeing's and putting 250 hour pilots into the right seat. And even then, back in those days, a new hire went to the 727 panel to learn the ropes. I spent 4 years on the panel and it was a great way learn how things work in the pointy end of a jet.

Joe, I'm getting the impression you're a recruiter for Gulfstream. Are you?

.

People can spend their money any way they want. With how bad everything has gotten I don't think anyone has the right to tell someone the best way for them to try to make a better life for their family and themselves. PFJ isn't guaranteed to work out for someone, so if they want take the risk it is up to them.

 

[DL31082]

So my new employer is willing to pay for time to get me flying his aircraft (insurance sucks). Looking for a minimum of 40-50 hours but if there is a good time building package out there as far and price and aircraft safety we will probably buy more.

Anyone know good places for some quick time building?

BTW I only have time in a Seneca II and PA-23-180.

Guys, I'm not sure what the problem is with this. His employer is willing to pay for the time. Not him.

 

[gne in prog]

Guys, I'm not sure what the problem is with this. His employer is willing to pay for the time. Not him.

no problem with that. the problem started when i jokingly through up gsa website and the discussion got side tracked. sorry about that.

 

[unclenobby]

So my new employer is willing to pay for time to get me flying his aircraft (insurance sucks). Looking for a minimum of 40-50 hours but if there is a good time building package out there as far and price and aircraft safety we will probably buy more.

Anyone know good places for some quick time building?

BTW I only have time in a Seneca II and PA-23-180.

Don't think you mentioned what aircraft he has - but why not fly in his aircraft with an instructor? Makes sense if that aircraft is the one you will be flying, and price of fuel/instructor/maintenance is comparable to what you will pay a flight school for rental.

 

[Muff3n]

I also like the idea of flying the airplane that your employer is going to have you fly. The only thing that changes this idea is that if it is a big twin that cost a lot of money to run and it would be a lot cheaper for him for you to go somewhere else and do your time building for a lot cheaper.

I am just saying this un aware of what type of twin your boss man intends for you to fly once you get your time.

 

[Douglas]

no problem with that. the problem started when i jokingly through up gsa website and the discussion got side tracked. sorry about that.

kindle kindle...BOOM!

 

[Maurus]

We have a Cessna 414. The problem is not getting insurance. The problem is getting on the special insurance the other half owner has. The guy doesn't need to go to simcom or anything, he just needs an IPC every year. The insurance he got it through requires at least 100 ME hours (50% chance on getting on with 50 hours) and the guy wont go for any other insurance plan because he would have to pay for recurrent training every year.

Also insurance wont allow an instructor on the plane with me unless I am named on the insurance. That wont happen till I have the multi time.

BTW the 50/50 ownership includes a second plane so scheduling wont be too bad.

This is beginning to look like a time where I will have to run this via sole manipulator to get my PIC time up.

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

The reason Gulfstream is so "cheap" is because they SHOULD be PAYING YOU. Not the other way around. It is a part 121 operation carrying PAYING passengers. That is why it is PFJ

Well the way I read the program is that Gulfstream does pay you $19 an hour to fly the aircraft when you are carrying passengers. Although not a lot of money, that seems to be in line with what other regionals are paying.

Joe

 

[mshunter]

Well the way I read the program is that Gulfstream does pay you $19 an hour to fly the aircraft when you are carrying passengers. Although not a lot of money, that seems to be in line with what other regionals are paying.

Joe

250x$19.00 = $4750.00

Fist officer program cost = $32699.00

Total out of pocket cost = $27949.00 = STILL PFJ!

Do you think the people in the back know that the FO paid to be there?

Edit to add: It's more than likely set up that way to work around some insurance policy where they won't let someone right seat who has paid to be there. It more than likely has to do with the fact that Gulfstream is touted as a 121 airline. I can almost gaurentee it set up as a work around. So in essence, you are just paying yourself from a loan/dad's money while you sit right seat in an airplane that doesn't even require an SIC, except for the fact that the SOP's are written that way. All it is is a KingAir 350 with a diffrent fuse, or the other way around (chinken or egg thing, who came first).


Realy Joe? Really?

Edit-Edit to add: Yep, I watched the video. You pay for ground school, then they "hire" you at Gulfstream airlines to sit the right seat.

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

If you split multi time with someone (price depends upon the school) but lets say $200/hr wet for a Seminole, Seneca, Duchess whatever... Thats $100/hr an hour per person. Multiply by 250 you get 25000 which is about the same as Gulfstream.

But personally, I'd rather pay $5000 to $7000 get the multi and the MEI (if you don't already have it) then work one year as a CFI/CFII/MEI and get the time the old fashioned way. You probably won't get 250 multi in year unless your at Ari-ben or ATP but it doesn't matter.

The problem is that GIA preys on pilots who have the "omg I need to fly for an airline NOWWWW!" syndrome. I mean personally I still owe 50K on my student loans for flight training and college, I can't really justify dumping another 29K on top of that for multi time. And when you break it down your paying 29K for a 19/hr job that will fire you automatically when you hit 250 hours (and yes they probably will fire you). Only in aviation does this happen, I don't get it. Just work an extra two years get the time you need and go to a regional the old fashioned way.

Remember what your paying for. Your not paying 29K to get into the left seat of a 737 making 50K a year. Your paying 29K to get into the seat of a regional jet at 19/hr and then 22/hr the next year 25/hr the next year etc etc. (Depending upon what regional you get on with afterwards).

Basically GIA capitalizes on a pilot's need for instant gratification. Plus flying a jet isn't all its cracked up to be anyways after a while, trust me.

 

[mshunter]

Then I ran the numbers and discovered Gulfstream is much cheaper than the cheapest multi time that at least two of us can find. I ran the Gulfstream time at 250 hours. When I later went to their website I found that you actually get 280 hours. So the cost is even less expensive per hour than I originally calculated. Now it's down to about $83 an hour.

Well your research was incomplete. You only get 250hrs of time *in the airplane*. The actually show it as 318hrs of "Turboprop experince."

Bottom line, it's still PFT/PFJ. And the main reason why the regionals pay poverty wages. I'm sure the bean counters at the airlines have figured what it would take, money wise, to keep their guys just off of food stamps/welfare if they are to sit reserve all mont, and only make their gaurentee.

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

Gulfstream is a very bad idea. I recently met someone who did this program, it worked well for him till he needed to find another flying job. He's been out of work (been working outside aviation) for three years. He gets interviews, but is never offered a job. Could be how he interviews or other factors, but I think it's because he has Gulfstream on his resume.

And I've met some Gulfstream alumni that are flying for airlines such as Southwest, AirTran, Pinnacle and others. In fact there are over 2000 of Gulfstream alumni and former Gulfstream pilots are working at most of the airlines in this country.

Do some more research, Gulfstream Airlines was recently awarded a nice fine by the FAA.

Many airlines have been fined by the FAA in recent years. In fact Southwest has been fined the most by the FAA with $7,500,000, American over 5 million, USAir over 5 million, United over 3 million, American Eagle over 2 million and the list goes on.



Here are the Airline Total fines since 2003:

Southwest$7,500,000

American$5,864,000

US Airways$5,653,500

United$3,906,750

American Eagle$2,002,000

Alaska$1,117,000

Northwest$690,550

Frontier$369,500

Atlantic Southeast$250,000

Delta$145,500

JetBlue$126,000

ExpressJet$98,600

Mesaba$78,250

PSA$73,000

Hawaiian$72,000

Horizon Air$52,500

Continental$49,000

Chautauqua$40,500

Air Wisconsin$27,000

Pinnacle$19,800

SkyWest$14,500

Mesa$6,500

AirTran$4,000

Comair$0

Republic$0

Total$28,160,450

They should be paying you! Bottom line. It's a 121 operation, how many pilots for other airlines are paying the airline to fly the airplane?

Gulfstream does pay you $19 an hour while you are flying passengers and AFTER you have completed the ground school and Sim training in Orlando.

Does a plumber pay you to work on your house?

No but his helper may be an apprentice and I as a customer are going to be charged for his helper's as well.

Does a police officer pay you to patrol your house?

Of course not, but rookie cops ride with experienced cops after they leave the academy so that they can gain actual field experience. They don't just turn new academy graduates loose on the street without being under the direction on an experienced police officer.

Does a school bus driver pay the school board to drive their busses?

Nope, but that driver probably has to pay to be trained to drive a school bus prior to carrying students.

After all, the plumber needs experience to get his journeyman's card right? The police officer needs experience to get Sgt. right?

Yep and a low time FAA licensed pilot needs real world experience as well. What better place to get that experience than sitting next to an Airline Captain flying an aircraft that he is incredibly proficient in?

Are you seeing the problem yet?

The problem I'm seeing is that there are some folks that don't like Gulfstream because of the way they do business, but those same folks do not have a viable economical alternate solution for a pilot to gain real world multi engine experience or real world airline experience.

When Gulfstream first started, I can understand the concern from the pilot community. But with a 17 year track record of obvious success, all of these perceived issues with Gulfstream just don't hold up when you really look into the long term picture of this business.

In looking back over the very old JC threads on Gulfstream (going back to 2003) I see the Gulfstream issues have basically been the same all along. Some hated Gulfstream in 2003 and they still hate them now. I also see that the Gulfstream program used to be a different program where they attempted to take zero time people to pilots. It used to cost a whole lot more. That program was obviously problematic and Gulfstream made adjustments to their program and no longer accepts pilots that do not already have all of their ratings.

Today (and for the last 5 years) in order to attend Gulfstream, you must already have all of your ratings. You must already be a licensed commercial pilot. That has created a higher standard. It's not the same program that it once was. The bad guys that used to run the place were fired in 2005 and 2006. Things change in this industry.

Joe

 

[gne in prog]

^ seriously, what's your job title there?

Either you went there, you work there, or you're trolling. A bit too much cheerleading in that last post.

 

[poser765]

Gulfstream does pay you $19 an hour while you are flying passengers and AFTER you have completed the ground school and Sim training in Orlando.

The fact that the actually pay you is rather academic. They are paying you for hours worked that will not compensate for you paying for the privilege of working there. When you finish the program you are still out a considerable piece of change. That 19 an hours if nothing more than a cash rebate on your "tuition fee."

Think of it like this. I go to McDonald's and apply for a temp job. They say I can work for a month and pay me 7/hour 40 hours/week. That's $1120. Now they tell me it is going to cost me four grand to pay for their McD's training. Great, no problem since I am getting paid right? Well that still puts you in the rears by $2280. So, did I get paid in my month at McDonald's? No, I just got an $1100 discount on the experience of working a drive though.

Seems like bull poop to me.

 

[JOEFRIDAY2]

^ seriously, what's your job title there?

Either you went there, you work there, or you're trolling. A bit too much cheerleading in that last post.

I've never set foot in the place and I don't work there. I'm also not trolling.

What I have done is have an open mind and researched Gulfstream Academy to find out what the real deal is. You should try it sometime.

I've listened to everything you guys have said and frankly I can't find any of it holds water other than you all are just mad at this place.

So far none of you have not come up with any reasonable alternative to the 280 multi engine hours you get at Gulfstream at anywhere close to the price that Gulfstream offers those 280 hours for.

So even though they do charge, even the cheapest multi engine time we can find is twice as much as Gulfstream. Yet because this training is tied to an airline operation, you guys have a problem with it. I would have to believe this training is better because it is tied to an airline operation.

Does everyone need this training? Heck no. If you already have a bunch of multi time, you have no reason to go to Gulfstream.

But it has been my experience that multi time is very difficult to get and it is expensive when you do find it.

The OP came here and needs 50 hours. It is going to cost $9487 for him to get that 50 hours using the cheapest place in this thread. Why does he need this time? Because he doesn't have it and the insurance company requires it. Is he going to go to Gulfstream to get it? No because it doesn't make sense for him. But he is still going to have pay for those 50 hours. No body is going to give it to him free.

At this point, Gulfstream is the least expensive way to get multi time that I can find. If any of you know of available and less expensive multi time than Gulfstream, then I'm listening.

Joe