Multi engine hour requirements in regionals

[TheAlchemist]

Nor do the airlines, but they seem to think they can define what is PIC and what isn't. Besides, the FAA bends to the insurance industry all the time; hence the note in the FARs allowing multi solo PIC time to be logged with an instructor aboard.

WHA? Multi solo PIC w/ an CFI aboard? How can one log solo PIC w/ an CFI? You mean if the student already has the Multi rating right?!!

 

[casey]

Nor do the airlines, but they seem to think they can define what is PIC and what isn't. Besides, the FAA bends to the insurance industry all the time; hence the note in the FARs allowing multi solo PIC time to be logged with an instructor aboard.

the airlines dont need to. Part 121 requires among other things, multi engine aircraft, at least a 2 pilot crew (more in certain cases) and flight attendants to operate.

The PIC/SIC issue i think you are getting at is also not defined by the airlines. "PIC" has 2 definitions. In 14 CFR 1, PIC is defined as

Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has the final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as the pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

14 CFR 61 also deals with defining PIC and further makes the distinction between "acting" as a PIC and "logging" PIC. I'm not going to delve into that distinction, you can read about it elsewhere, in depth.

To act as a PIC in a 121 environment requires everything that part 61 requires of you in your Cessna 172, and in addition various 121 regs are brought into the picture. Some of the highlights are 121.440, required a PIC to have had a line check within the preceding 12 months; 121.441 requiring simulator proficiency checks or simulator training within the last 12 and 6 months; 121.443 and 445 which detail requirements of PIC's operating into specific environments. All this is in addition to the basic crew member requirements spelled out in part 121.

Now im not entirely sure what exactly the airlines "think they can define what is PIC and what isn't", but i'd be happy to take a stab at it if you can clarify for me. Is this about FO's logging PIC (part 61) time? Airlines not accepting shady kingair or emb110 part 91 SIC time? something else?

To the second part, yes you have a point about multi engine solo time, but i wouldnt be surprised if someone like AOPA had a hand in that, making life a little easier for everyone doing multi-engine training. That situation is pretty limited in scope though, only dealing with "solo" multi-engine requirements pre-certification, and i believe then only with the satisfying of solo/PIC requirements for specific XC flights. That doesnt mean you can hop into the right seat of a part 91 multi-engine airplane and log SIC because your "insurance" or "boss" requires 2 pilots.

If you are going to log SIC, do it right. Some situations allowing you to write in that column include specific safety pilot agreements (PIC/PIC vs PIC/SIC, you can do it both ways), part 91 on an aircraft whose type certificate requires a second pilot, part 135 with the proper training and checkrides, part 121 with the proper training and checkrides.

 

[casey]

WHA? Multi solo PIC w/ an CFI aboard? How can one log solo PIC w/ an CFI? You mean if the student already has the Multi rating right?!!

This is for someone seeking a multi commercial certificate.

61.129(b)(4).

You need 10 hours of "solo" flight time *or* "performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor". There is wording allowing this student/instructor flying to be credited toward the PIC requirement.

Note a couple things, the student is *not* logging PIC or solo, he is logging dual received. He *may* however record the time flown like this as "solo" on his 8710, satisfying the requirements of 61.192(b)(4).

Also, the instructor on these flights is to act as an SIC only, not as an instructor. While the reg allows for an "authorized instructor" the intent of the reg is to make the student work as if solo, but provide a safety net in case things start to go wrong and beyond the students abilities.

For these flights the actual logbook entries are as normal for training. student will log dual received and multi-engine and the instructor will log dual given and PIC. Additionally the instructor should endorse the students logbook for these flights that it was performed to satisfy the requirements of 61.129(b)(4) to both satisfy the examiner when he sees time under the "solo" box of the 8710, but no solo time in the logbook, and to certify that the instructor was acting as stated above for the flights.

 

[E_Dawg]

Nor do the airlines, but they seem to think they can define what is PIC and what isn't.

There is the legal definition of PIC time which counts towards certs and ratings; and there is time which counts on job applications. The company is free to choose what kind of time to require.

 

[casey]

There is the legal definition of PIC time which counts towards certs and ratings; and there is time which counts on job applications. The company is free to choose what kind of time to require.

that was much more concise than the way i went about saying it. (do i talk to much?...)

 

[aloft]

My point exactly.

 

[flynkiwi]

Heres FAA response for those interested;

'The only time
>that SIC can be logged is if it a required position. Part 135 makes
>defines those times when a SIC is required. Part 91 does not. However,
>that requirement can be a company requirement, but it must be documented as
>such. For instance, a business owns a King Air and hires a guy to be
>co-pilot. The co-pilot can log time as SIC if there is a company manual
>that indicates that certain or all flights must have two pilots.'

 

[100LLguy]

quick response......do you have a pulse? YOU'RE HIRED