MU-2B accident in New York

[A300Capt]

Not to be argumentative, but I'd happily make the case that a high performance piston twin is a higher workload than most turboprops since you don't have to deal with mixtures, props, cowl flaps, managing CHT's etc when you're burning jet A. You also have more power on hand to escape conditions like icing or manage a single engine scenario. Things may happen slightly faster in the turbine world, but that's just a matter of proficiency and staying ahead of the plane and situation. If we're going to say that a King Air shouldn't be operated single pilot then I'd argue the same should hold true for a Baron since it's equally capable of getting the pilot into trouble.

Yep…all good points! I really can’t argue with what you say.

One could also argue, and as you pointed out, that things do happen faster ( you say slightly and I’ll say significantly) in a turboprop vs a piston prop. If a single ops pilot is already overloaded in an aircraft he’s not 100% comfortable or competent in, speeding things up doesn’t help and folks tend to lock up or flail. Time gets compressed and faster, yet methodical and sensical thinking is required to stay ahead of the aircraft/situation. Basically, have a plan beforehand on a few “what ifs”. Also, while a turboprop does have significantly more power vs a piston twin, if you can’t anticipate, control or harness all that power then you can quickly get behind the aircraft in IMC. I can imagine getting behind an MU2 is probably a recipe for disaster. As an example, adding a fistful of power on a single engine GA in a turboprop (especially IMC and/or nighttime) can be very disorienting and produce a surprisingly rapid roll rate into the dead engine if not prepared or being situationally overloaded. I saw it many times in a jet sim at the airline level. It can be humbling.

Anyway, my personal feeling is this Dr/owner was not reckless and may have been very cautious and check all the boxes…on paper (I’d like to see his training record). Was he a “barely passed but has a big checkbook” type of student or was he an “ Ace of the base” hot shot? Possibly his only mistake was buying and flying a high performance aircraft, in this case one with a known history of spanking pilots hard if not operated carefully between the lines, into IMC conditions which he appeared to be having trouble getting all his ducks in a row. Hopefully we’ll get answers as to what lead up to the accident so we can prevent the next one. Was it an engine failure on the GA or some other distracting mechanical issue? Too much dependence or holes in his knowledge about the avionics/autopilot ops during high workloads? Possible spatial disorientation due to flying a hot little rice rocket single pilot during a high workload IMC environment? Who knows?

I can tell you with all my turboprop/ jet time and when I was current and at the peak of my game….that MU2 probably, flown single pilot, would’ve most likely eaten my lunch too given the amount of time he had in it and the pressure/stressful conditions he was operating in at the time. Always nice to have a second pair of eyes and hands in the other seat to take some of the workload gets high.

 

[milleR]

Yep…all good points! I really can’t argue with what you say.

One could also argue, and as you pointed out, that things do happen faster ( you say slightly and I’ll say significantly) in a turboprop vs a piston prop. If a single ops pilot is already overloaded in an aircraft he’s not 100% comfortable or competent in, speeding things up doesn’t help and folks tend to lock up or flail. Time gets compressed and faster, yet methodical and sensical thinking is required to stay ahead of the aircraft/situation. Basically, have a plan beforehand on a few “what ifs”. Also, while a turboprop does have significantly more power vs a piston twin, if you can’t anticipate, control or harness all that power then you can quickly get behind the aircraft in IMC. I can imagine getting behind an MU2 is probably a recipe for disaster. As an example, adding a fistful of power on a single engine GA in a turboprop (especially IMC and/or nighttime) can be very disorienting and produce a surprisingly rapid roll rate into the dead engine if not prepared or being situationally overloaded. I saw it many times in a jet sim at the airline level. It can be humbling.

Anyway, my personal feeling is this Dr/owner was not reckless and may have been very cautious and check all the boxes…on paper (I’d like to see his training record). Was he a “barely passed but has a big checkbook” type of student or was he an “ Ace of the base” hot shot? Possibly his only mistake was buying and flying a high performance aircraft, in this case one with a known history of spanking pilots hard if not operated carefully between the lines, into IMC conditions which he appeared to be having trouble getting all his ducks in a row. Hopefully we’ll get answers as to what lead up to the accident so we can prevent the next one. Was it an engine failure on the GA or some other distracting mechanical issue? Too much dependence or holes in his knowledge about the avionics/autopilot ops during high workloads? Possible spatial disorientation due to flying a hot little rice rocket single pilot during a high workload IMC environment? Who knows?

I can tell you with all my turboprop/ jet time and when I was current and at the peak of my game….that MU2 probably, flown single pilot, would’ve most likely eaten my lunch too given the amount of time he had in it and the pressure/stressful conditions he was operating in at the time. Always nice to have a second pair of eyes and hands in the other seat to take some of the workload gets high.

I certainly don't disagree. And I'll acknowledge that I come to the conversation with a strong bias; I've owned and operated my MU-2, single pilot, for ten years now. So while I don't agree with statements (not from you) that turboprops "can't" or "shouldn't" be flown single pilot, I will wholeheartedly agree that a second qualified pilot in the cockpit is -almost- always a benefit. Much like a high performance car, a turboprop- especially a Garrett powered one- will both go faster but also slow down a lot faster than a piston. That level of performance needs to be understood and planned for, since what can be a massive advantage can also be very dangerous when the pilot falls behind the curve.

Concerning this particular accident, I really can't form an opinion because I don't know what the Dr.'s past experience was.

What I do know is that the MU-2 is an extremely capable airframe but is also somewhat demanding and takes a couple hundred hours to really understand and operate to its full capacity safely and competently.

I know that this particular plane was very well equipped with a modern Garmin panel, but I don't know what the Dr.'s experience or familiarity with Garmin products was.

I know that it was a pretty low IFR day with probable icing in the area. Given those conditions, I think a high level of both instrument and airframe proficiency would be requisite to operate safely.

The mits will very happily fly 200+KIAS to the marker and get established on a stabilized GS down to minimums in moderate icing conditions and land safely. But that's not something I'd attempt without a lot of experience in the plane.

 

[DropTank]

How much time do you have in one, operating one, or managing one for a specific mission?

EDIT - initial post argumentative - sorry.

I’m just really wondering where those comments are coming from because when one looks at the data after the (unfortunate) teething and initial training issues with the airplane it’s a remarkably solid and safe platform.

The MU-2 *crash* is a perfectly safe *crash*
I said.... perf- *crash* perfectly *crash* SAFE *crash* airplane to *crash* fly....

The dead giveaway is the extra training needed.

(and the crashes)

 

[milleR]

The MU-2 *crash* is a perfectly safe *crash*
I said.... perf- *crash* perfectly *crash* SAFE *crash* airplane to *crash* fly....

The dead giveaway is the extra training needed.

(and the crashes)

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but can we at least agree it doesn't have anything to do with the actual plane itself?

 

[NovemberEcho]

The MU-2 *crash* is a perfectly safe *crash*
I said.... perf- *crash* perfectly *crash* SAFE *crash* airplane to *crash* fly....

The dead giveaway is the extra training needed.

(and the crashes)

Meh and the B-26 was called the widowmaker until they adjusted the training for it and it ended the war with the best safety record of all the American bombers

 

[killbilly]

The MU-2 *crash* is a perfectly safe *crash*
I said.... perf- *crash* perfectly *crash* SAFE *crash* airplane to *crash* fly....

The dead giveaway is the extra training needed.

(and the crashes)

You know, I tried to give you a reason response and even admitted to my obnoxiously argumentative initial.

You chose otherwise.

Got it.

 

[milleR]

You know, I tried to give you a reason response and even admitted to my obnoxiously argumentative initial.

You chose otherwise.

Got it.

To be faaiiirrr ... you've been far closer to death in a MU-2 than you ever actually appreciated

 

[killbilly]

To be faaiiirrr ... you've been far closer to death in a MU-2 than you ever actually appreciated

You’re not helping mom

 

[Lawman]

Meh and the B-26 was called the widowmaker until they adjusted the training for it and it ended the war with the best safety record of all the American bombers

Say anything about Osprey… same thing. Safest record by flight hour or any rotary assault platform in the DoD. “But my wife’s cousin read on the internet it can’t auto!”

A moniker is the aviation equivalent of Ford Vs Chevy. Everybody has an opinion, and most of them aren’t informed when it gets into this sort of thing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[milleR]

You’re not helping mom

I ran out of F's to give on the mitsi hater's a long time ago lol. As Ron White so eloquently said, you can't fix stupid

 

[knot4u]

The MU-2 *crash* is a perfectly safe *crash*
I said.... perf- *crash* perfectly *crash* SAFE *crash* airplane to *crash* fly....

The dead giveaway is the extra training needed.

(and the crashes)

Tell us Mr. Pelican about the 20 series Lears and the Robinson helicopters. We're all waiting with bated breath for your "expert" opinion. You talk a lot and don't do much. It sucks to be you.

 

[derg]

Meh and the B-26 was called the widowmaker until they adjusted the training for it and it ended the war with the best safety record of all the American bombers

"Scarebus" became, well, the Airbus, once people learned the systems and the training adjusted.

 

[NovemberEcho]

To be faaiiirrr ... you've been far closer to death in a MU-2 than you ever actually appreciated

That’s what I tell people after they fly through my airspace

 

[DropTank]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but can we at least agree it doesn't have anything to do with the actual plane itself?

BWAHAHAHAHAHA.. no

You know, I tried to give you a reason response and even admitted to my obnoxiously argumentative initial.

You chose otherwise.

Got it.

wah.

 

[derg]

That’s what I tell people after they fly through my airspace

“Listen… the voice is speaking faster and faster and his vocal pitch is increasing with each transmission…. Wait for it…wait… PANIC VECTOR! There it is! WAAAOOOOOO!”

 

[NovemberEcho]

“Listen… the voice is speaking faster and faster and his vocal pitch is increasing with each transmission…. Wait for it…wait… PANIC VECTOR! There it is! WAAAOOOOOO!”

The difference is I have an excellent radio voice that doesn’t change with excitement/terror which is why you don’t realize how close to death you came. My first trainer complimented by saying I would confidently vector a plane into a mountain some day but they’d do it because I sound good.

 

[Wardogg]

The difference is I have an excellent radio voice that doesn’t change with excitement/terror which is why you don’t realize how close to death you came. My first trainer complimented by saying I would confidently vector a plane into a mountain some day but they’d do it because I sound good.

Which is exactly how I like my controllers to be. Right turn? I’m on it.

 

[Richman]

Governor of SoDak was riding in the state MU-2. It shed a prop blade that sliced through the cabin & severed control cables. They kept it under control and were going to belly into one of the vast empty farm fields, but it was IFR and hit a grain silo, which was the only tall structure in the area.

Like a mugging in Gotham City, sometimes things just go bad.

The funeral procession went through my little town. Everyone lined the highway. I was standing next to an old timer straight out of a Norman Rockwell painting and he said “Even if you don’t respect the man, you respect the office.”

With his hat in his hand.

People don’t wear enough hats.

 

[derg]

The difference is I have an excellent radio voice that doesn’t change with excitement/terror which is why you don’t realize how close to death you came. My first trainer complimented by saying I would confidently vector a plane into a mountain some day but they’d do it because I sound good.

You sound a little Southern on the radio!

 

[milleR]

The difference is I have an excellent radio voice that doesn’t change with excitement/terror which is why you don’t realize how close to death you came. My first trainer complimented by saying I would confidently vector a plane into a mountain some day but they’d do it because I sound good.

"descend to zero thousand feet, vectors for the final"