Most "B.A." Airplane - Part I - Military Prop

[WacoFan]

The Corsair was nicknamed "Whistling Death" by the Japanese. I have heard this sound once, at an airshow in Conroe, Tx when a guy was performing a routine in his Corsair (this, after he jumped out of his Mustang after giving a Mustang routine). He did a high-speed pass and on the dive the airplane pulled vapor trails off the wingtips and made an eerie whistle/scream that was distinct from the engine (and complimentary). To imagine several of these things diving on your position shooting .50 cal ammo and dropping napalm on you is a scary prospect...all the while "calling its shot" with the weird and scary whistle. It was at that point I decided that the Corsair may be the baddest of them all as far as WWII fighters go.

 

[ILS37R]

How has this not been posted yet:

 

[ctab5060X]

I prefer the corsair, but to say that it was "faster" than a 51 is a little bit misleading. IIRC, the -1s were about the same speed at low/mid altitude, but the stang would eat their lunch up at escort altitude. Now the -4 was a different story, but that was a much later development, probably more fair to compare it to a 51H. It certainly seems to be true that at all altitudes, the corsair would out roll and out turn a stang, but you also have to factor in the 51s reportedly "UFO-like" energy retention properties.

That said, anything with a radial beats anything with an inline in a "BA" contest on pure principle.

You also have to factor in the fact that the Mustang started life with an Allison engine, not the RR Merlin. It wasn't until the Merlin was added that the airplance came into its own.

 

[Boris Badenov]

You also have to factor in the fact that the Mustang started life with an Allison engine, not the RR Merlin. It wasn't until the Merlin was added that the airplance came into its own.

Yeah by all accounts I've read the A-36/Allison 51s were total dogs at altitude, although they were still pretty quick on the deck. Definitely a case of "fortuitous circumstance" with the Merlin, since a fast airplane with poor roll and a glass chin (radiator/coolant) on the deck doth not a P47-beater make. Still, give the thing it's due (although I think it's vastly overrated by the flag-waving history channel watching set), it was a brilliant escort fighter with the RR. Now, had things been just a bit different, the 190D might have had a thing or two to say about the "aluminum overcast", but (luckily), we managed to keep the squareheads from fielding enough of them (or the 262s) to make much of a difference. The Merlin 51s were definitely a sign of things to come with their vertical "boom n zoom" game, but they were hardly the deus ex machina the fanboys make them out to be. And, (again, IIRC...it's been years since I was deeply in to this stuff), given equal sticks, the f4u could hang or beat them in all parameters anywhere below about 20 or 25k. This brings me back to the F8F. Flew circles around every piston engine fighter from every country, whenever designed, whenever fielded, at whatever altitude, however modified. Too bad about those jets, cause the F8F was a world-beater. AND it could land on a tiny frickin WWII era carrier. Ironworks #1!

 

[ctab5060X]

Yeah by all accounts I've read the A-36/Allison 51s were total dogs at altitude, although they were still pretty quick on the deck. Definitely a case of "fortuitous circumstance" with the Merlin, since a fast airplane with poor roll and a glass chin (radiator/coolant) on the deck doth not a P47-beater make. Still, give the thing it's due (although I think it's vastly overrated by the flag-waving history channel watching set), it was a brilliant escort fighter with the RR. Now, had things been just a bit different, the 190D might have had a thing or two to say about the "aluminum overcast", but (luckily), we managed to keep the squareheads from fielding enough of them (or the 262s) to make much of a difference. The Merlin 51s were definitely a sign of things to come with their vertical "boom n zoom" game, but they were hardly the deus ex machina the fanboys make them out to be. And, (again, IIRC...it's been years since I was deeply in to this stuff), given equal sticks, the f4u could hang or beat them in all parameters anywhere below about 20 or 25k. This brings me back to the F8F. Flew circles around every piston engine fighter from every country, whenever designed, whenever fielded, at whatever altitude, however modified. Too bad about those jets, cause the F8F was a world-beater. AND it could land on a tiny frickin WWII era carrier. Ironworks #1!

Here is another thing you have to consider with the (as you so wonderfully put it) flag-waving history channel watching set. More flying Mustangs have survived compared to other Fighters on WWII. With the Corsair, there are very few flying examples when compared to the Mustang. Leads to the mentatlity that if so many ae still flying, it must have been the best.... wrong!

I agree with the F8F, but there is one major flaw. No lengthy combat record to back everything up. Sure it could fly circles around everything else, but to me the lingering question still is, could it fight?

 

[Boris Badenov]

I agree with the F8F, but there is one major flaw. No lengthy combat record to back everything up. Sure it could fly circles around everything else, but to me the lingering question still is, could it fight?

Well of course all theoretical discussions of this sort are kind of silly, since what really wins fights (im humble, non-educated, inexperienced opinion) is leadership, training, and tactics, unless the aircraft are just absurdly mismatched, particularly when you consider that in a gunfight, it's almost never just two aircraft and their relative performance at hand. Things like armor (f4u had a lot, stang a fair bit (except for the glass chin), germans had some, but often in weird places, japanese planes were made out of paper) begin to matter more than outright performance (see Thatch Weave). That said, the post-war trials were all flown by guys who had actually been in combat and the F8F had just as much good ole American Steel between the yoke actuator and anything unplesasant as anything else we fielded, with the possible exception of the F4U, F6F and the P47. Every contemporary account I've read of the F8F's performance was wildly enthusiastic, bordering on giddy. I'd venture to say that in 1946 or 47, a US force of 51Hs, 47Ms, or F8Fs could have handed any airforce in the world its nads on a dinner plate in a one-for-one furball. Part of that was the training and experience, for sure, but the aircraft were superior as well. Sometimes shockingly so. The Soviets, in particular, wouldn't have known what hit them. Ah, what might have been.

 

[OhioStatePilot]

Boris, while I agree that the F8F is an outstanding aircraft, it still loses out to the P-47 and the P-51 isn't even in the mix. While the P-51 is pretty, the F8F and the P-47 are both meat and potatoes aircraft. Lets break it down:


	F8F-1	P-47D
Max Take-off Weight:	12,947	17,500
Max Speed:	421 mph	433 mph
Range:	1,105 mi	1,800 mi (ferry range, only 800 combat)
Service Ceiling:	38,700 ft	43,000 ft
Rate of Climb:	4,570 ft/min	3,120 ft/min
Guns:	4 x .50 cal	8 x .50 cal
Rockets:	4 x 5 in	10 x 5 in
Bombs:	1,000 lbs	2.500 lbs
Well, there's my direct comparision... but hey, the F8F sure can climb!

 

[ctab5060X]

Well of course all theoretical discussions of this sort are kind of silly, since what really wins fights (im humble, non-educated, inexperienced opinion) is leadership, training, and tactics, unless the aircraft are just absurdly mismatched, particularly when you consider that in a gunfight, it's almost never just two aircraft and their relative performance at hand. Things like armor (f4u had a lot, stang a fair bit (except for the glass chin), germans had some, but often in weird places, japanese planes were made out of paper) begin to matter more than outright performance (see Thatch Weave). That said, the post-war trials were all flown by guys who had actually been in combat and the F8F had just as much good ole American Steel between the yoke actuator and anything unplesasant as anything else we fielded, with the possible exception of the F4U, F6F and the P47. Every contemporary account I've read of the F8F's performance was wildly enthusiastic, bordering on giddy. I'd venture to say that in 1946 or 47, a US force of 51Hs, 47Ms, or F8Fs could have handed any airforce in the world its nads on a dinner plate in a one-for-one furball. Part of that was the training and experience, for sure, but the aircraft were superior as well. Sometimes shockingly so. The Soviets, in particular, wouldn't have known what hit them. Ah, what might have been.

The Bearcat still holds the time to climb record for piston aircraft. In 1972 Rare Bear did it in 91.9 seconds, passing the mark set by an unmodified F8F-1 in 1946 of 94 seconds.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Boris, while I agree that the F8F is an outstanding aircraft, it still loses out to the P-47 and the P-51 isn't even in the mix. While the P-51 is pretty, the F8F and the P-47 are both meat and potatoes aircraft. Lets break it down:


	F8F-1	P-47D
Max Take-off Weight:	12,947	17,500
Max Speed:	421 mph	433 mph
Range:	1,105 mi	1,800 mi (ferry range, only 800 combat)
Service Ceiling:	38,700 ft	43,000 ft
Rate of Climb:	4,570 ft/min	3,120 ft/min
Guns:	4 x .50 cal	8 x .50 cal
Rockets:	4 x 5 in	10 x 5 in
Bombs:	1,000 lbs	2.500 lbs
Well, there's my direct comparision... but hey, the F8F sure can climb!

In a WW2 gunfight, the ability to climb away often gave the ability to circle higher and higher till it was time to drop down on your unwary prey. See Bf109K. I would be interested to see speed numbers for the 47D vs. the F8F at realistic altitudes for a gunfight. The 47 was a mack truck...lots of speed in a straight line, insane firepower, ridiculous superchargers and altitude performance (almost on par with the 51), but a dogfighter it was not. From my by no means exhaustive, but fairly serious, reads on the subject, the 47 jocks who did well would barrel down at ludicrous speed, blast the bad guys, take the vertical, and rinse-wash-repeat till they ran out of energy. They did not hang around and dogfight. Wisely. The F8F could do it all...boom and zoom till they ran out of E, then shock and surprise the "more nimble" adversary by turning like my luck at the slots.

 

[ctab5060X]

In a WW2 gunfight, the ability to climb away often gave the ability to circle higher and higher till it was time to drop down on your unwary prey. See Bf109K. I would be interested to see speed numbers for the 47D vs. the F8F at realistic altitudes for a gunfight. The 47 was a mack truck...lots of speed in a straight line, insane firepower, ridiculous superchargers and altitude performance (almost on par with the 51), but a dogfighter it was not. From my by no means exhaustive, but fairly serious, reads on the subject, the 47 jocks who did well would barrel down at ludicrous speed, blast the bad guys, take the vertical, and rinse-wash-repeat till they ran out of energy. They did not hang around and dogfight. Wisely. The F8F could do it all...boom and zoom till they ran out of E, then shock and surprise the "more nimble" adversary by turning like my luck at the slots.

Some interesting tidbits about the Bearcat...

Although it numerically follows the F6F Hellcat, the intended use was to be able to fly off of escort carriers, thus making it more of a replacement for the F4F Wildcat... quite a step up.

It was theoretically the smallest airframe that could still handle the R-2800. It was also the first naval fighter to use a bubble canopy.

The design of the Bearcat was heavily influenced by the Fw190.

 

[Boris Badenov]

The design of the Bearcat was heavily influenced by the Fw190.

And for good reason. The Fw190 pretty much wiped the floor with the much-vaunted and very pretty Spitfire when it was introduced (late 42, early 43). It couldn't turn with the spit, and the smart pilots didn't try to. But it could roll like a mormon on ecstacy and dive away from any fight it didn't like. Plus it had a big punch (2x20mm, 2x.50 (or 12.7mm if you prefer)). And so the age of boom n zoom was born.

 

[ctab5060X]

And for good reason. The Fw190 pretty much wiped the floor with the much-vaunted and very pretty Spitfire when it was introduced (late 42, early 43). It couldn't turn with the spit, and the smart pilots didn't try to. But it could roll like a mormon on ecstacy and dive away from any fight it didn't like. Plus it had a big punch (2x20mm, 2x.50 (or 12.7mm if you prefer)). And so the age of boom n zoom was born.

You do have a way with words!

 

[Boris Badenov]

Later war A-8 variant with four high velocity 20mm and two HMGs. "Butcherbird", they called it. Sex on a stick, AFAIC, and not the plane you want to be wearing the wrong insignia and directly in front of.

 

[WacoFan]

Later war A-8 variant with four high velocity 20mm and two HMGs. "Butcherbird", they called it. Sex on a stick, AFAIC, and not the plane you want to be wearing the wrong insignia and directly in front of.

When I can get the Texas secession thing going I am going to outfit the Air Force with new copies from Flug Werk, GhMB.
[YT]r1iY2oQTbaM[/YT]

 

[ctab5060X]

I know it had limited to know sucess, but anything capable of this combination...

 

[ctab5060X]

When I can get the Texas secession thing going I am going to outfit the Air Force with new copies from Flug Werk, GhMB.

I take it Wegougeemandhow will be the airline of choice?

 

[t-cart]

I know it had limited to know sucess, but anything capable of this combination...

That looks like that thing Jimmy Stewart rebuilt after crashing in that movie, except he put the one good engine on the nose.

 

[WacoFan]

I take it Wegougeemandhow will be the airline of choice?

It will be the Flag Carrier of Texas my friend.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Awesome video. Wish they'd yanked the gear, though. A propos to nothing, but it never fails to irritate me that they redact the swastika on reproductions (even in games, I think). They were Nazis. That's a big part of the story. Doesn't make their hardware any less interesting or BA. You can revile parts of history and still want to preserve their memory. In fact I'd argue that history is basically worthless if it's redacted. (/semi-rant)

PS. Don't you just love the "wide stance" gear of the 190? Apparently Kurt Tank was extremely reactive to all those taxi accidents they had with the 109 and its thimbly, narrow-track gear. "Hier you go, mein herrn, you cannot pozzibly screw zis up!"

PPS. What engine does the repo use? One imagines BMW 801s are kind of hard to come by these days.

 

[H46Bubba]

Here's the bad mamma jamma of military props