More Trans States news...

I don't think it would kill growth, just new hiring and most would probably want to say on the ERJ side anyways. I don't know, something about this whole thing doesn't make any sense. I understand the whipsaw aspect but two what end? Especially since both certifcates would be elligable for 50+ seat fling in May. I would think merging the lists like Freedom/Mesa would be the ultimate whipsaw then having to deal with opposing certificates one of which is willing to "burn the house down". If I was running a business I would want things to be quiet in the workforce...

Growth was a poor choice of words. Seniority list movement woulda been better. Every new airplane on property nets open vacancies. Right now, those vacancies are more than likely being filled by senior FOs becoming junior CAs and new hires. With an integration that allowed TSA pilots in on the action, senior TSA pilots could fill the CA vacancies and furloughed FOs would be filling the FO vacancies. Anyone hired at GoJets in the last 1-2 years would see any movement up the seniority list grind to a screeching halt.

JetsGoWhee said:
I'm on a trip now, but I've been reading and hearing from other guys that the company has sent out a letter via snail-mail (wow, I actually just used that word) saying that if we/ALPA/MEC don't accept the company's proposal, all Waterskiers will be out of a job. I'm just itching with anticipation to get home and open my mail box.

Straight outta the management play book. They don't get what they want, they try to scare the pilot's families. My advice: check the SEC filings. If they're reporting trouble there, then they may actually BE in trouble. If not, they're just a collection of ######s. Remember, they're only a-holes for lying in a company memo sent to your house. They're criminals for lying in an SEC filing.
 
Straight outta the management play book. They don't get what they want, they try to scare the pilot's families. My advice: check the SEC filings. If they're reporting trouble there, then they may actually BE in trouble. If not, they're just a collection of ######s. Remember, they're only a-holes for lying in a company memo sent to your house. They're criminals for lying in an SEC filing.



I think this pilot group is pretty firm in not being scared by any threats from management these days. Especially after one memo they put out a few years ago that threatened death (not joking) in not so many words if something wasn't complied with. I've got the memo at home, I think it was about sick calls or some nonsense, if anyone can correct me, please do. So, it's really hard to take their threats seriously.
 
Dear skydog,
No, the owner had another option. He could have abided by the contract he had with TSA pilots that states if there is a negotiation impasse for the payrates of a new aircraft type that it can be added to the fleet with an industry-average payrate while negotiations continue.
 
I think this pilot group is pretty firm in not being scared by any threats from management these days. Especially after one memo they put out a few years ago that threatened death (not joking) in not so many words if something wasn't complied with. I've got the memo at home, I think it was about sick calls or some nonsense, if anyone can correct me, please do. So, it's really hard to take their threats seriously.

I think I have you beat for the stupidest memo. A while back our RCP (regional chief pilot) sent out a memo stating that the aircraft were getting a bit dirty and asked us to try to fly through rain/rainclouds to wash them off. I kid you not.
 
My advice: check the SEC filings. If they're reporting trouble there, then they may actually BE in trouble. If not, they're just a collection of ######s. Remember, they're only a-holes for lying in a company memo sent to your house. They're criminals for lying in an SEC filing.

What filings? An 8K? 10Q?


So do they issue publically traded securities under TSA or TSA holdings? They are a holding company right? What would stop them from selling off a troubled or underperforming subsidiary and keeping one they want? Or close the operations of a subsidiary?

If they wanted to they could stop flying tomorrow and open up a dishwasher superstore. They could decide to close shop, exit the business and the only thing that would be required is a one sentence line on an 8K.
 
What filings? An 8K? 10Q?


So do they issue publically traded securities under TSA or TSA holdings? They are a holding company right? What would stop them from selling off a troubled or underperforming subsidiary and keeping one they want? Or close the operations of a subsidiary?

If they wanted to they could stop flying tomorrow and open up a dishwasher superstore. They could decide to close shop, exit the business and the only thing that would be required is a one sentence line on an 8K.

Yeah, my fault. Forgot TSA is a privately owned shell game, therefore not under the SEC restrictions.

Although, reading the management maneuvers at TSA, it's like deja vu from what I've seen here at PCL. Hang in there guys.
 
I think I have you beat for the stupidest memo. A while back our RCP (regional chief pilot) sent out a memo stating that the aircraft were getting a bit dirty and asked us to try to fly through rain/rainclouds to wash them off. I kid you not.




:laff::laff::laff::laff::laff::laff::laff:
 
I think I have you beat for the stupidest memo. A while back our RCP (regional chief pilot) sent out a memo stating that the aircraft were getting a bit dirty and asked us to try to fly through rain/rainclouds to wash them off. I kid you not.


Hahaha! Nice!
 
Why? And was that the only thing he could do? Honestly your arguments will not win anybody over. If you're still thinking that Gojet was created for technicality reasons, you are in denial. Look at what is happening now, it's a major whipsaw. Hulas could have easily upped the crappy 05 pay but he chose not to. Why? Because he can do what he's doing right now.

Ok, fair point. Maybe there were other things he could have done. But he chose what he chose. Again, his company, his way.

You say he could "have easily upped the pay." First of all why should he, when the reality of the situation is that he can hire people on the pay he is offering?

Secondly, what makes you think that he could "easily up the pay?" He only gets paid so much from United. That doesn't change just because the TSA pilots think they're entitled to more. Upping the pay may very well have put him out of competiton for the United flying.
Hell, we at Air Wisconisin gave up 7% on CRJ pay and still lost the deal. I don't know what his finances are, but they were apparently better than ours, so he got the deal.
 
O

Secondly, what makes you think that he could "easily up the pay?"
He only gets paid so much from United. That doesn't change just because the TSA pilots think they're entitled to more. l.

Because that's what he did for Gojet pilots! Why not for TSA? ALTEREGO for whipsaw! Your arguments do not hold. In the U.S a first world country, it is customary to up your employees pay once in a blue moon especially if they'lll be flying bigger equipment, not considering inflation. Are you seriously telling us that Hulas should lower the pay if he so chose and the employees have no rights? Especially union? Get real.
 
Secondly, what makes you think that he could "easily up the pay?" He only gets paid so much from United. That doesn't change just because the TSA pilots think they're entitled to more. Upping the pay may very well have put him out of competiton for the United flying.
Hell, we at Air Wisconisin gave up 7% on CRJ pay and still lost the deal. I don't know what his finances are, but they were apparently better than ours, so he got the deal.

Depends on the terms of the agreement with United. Our agreement with NWA, the company can pass along costs (including labor costs) as long as they are in line with average industry costs. So, they could up our pay here at PCL a lot, and not a single dime would be lost since the cost gets passed on.
 
Because that's what he did for Gojet pilots! Why not for TSA? ALTEREGO for whipsaw! Your arguments do not hold. In the U.S a first world country, it is customary to up your employees pay once in a blue moon especially if they'lll be flying bigger equipment, not considering inflation. Are you seriously telling us that Hulas should lower the pay if he so chose and the employees have no rights? Especially union? Get real.

One of this industry's paradigms is that bigger planes get bigger pay, so one would expect that he would up the pay his 70 jet pilots something more than his 50 seat jet pilots. But my guess is that the TSA pilots were chomping at the bit to put the screws to HK, so they probably asked for a lot more than he was offering or willing to pay.

I do not agree with your assessment that is is customary to up the pay of an employee with the passage of time. You increase employees' pay when 1) an employee takes on a more responsible, demanding, or productive position, 2) when the economics of the marketplace dictate an increase in pay, or 3) when he can't get people to work for him at the current wage (which is really saying the same thing as #2).

As an owner, as an entrepenuer, as a risk taker, HK has the right to choose how he will operate HIS company. If he deems it appropriate to freeze, or even reduce, his employee's pay, that his choice, and he will suffer, or enjoy the consequences of that. Don't like what you're getting paid? Think you're worth more? It's a free country. Go ask for a raise. Go find yourself a better set of circumstances.

Or you can attempt to coerce it with union action. Clearly the TSA pilots have chosen door #3. That's fine. But you'd better expect that he is going to respond in kind (i.e. alter ego, whipsaw, whatever). You guys are pulling your stunts (slowdown, fly safe, etc) in order to exert your influece over him. You can't do that, and not expect him flex his muscles as well.

But at the end of the day, should the company fold, HK is out way more than you are. You'll leave the company with exactly what you brought to it: your pilot ratings and experience. If anything, you'll leave with more than you brought too it (more flight time, and a type rating or two). But what I object to is, if you "burn the ######er down, you'll be destroying a lot more than just your own jobs.
 
One of this industry's paradigms is that bigger planes get bigger pay, so one would expect that he would up the pay his 70 jet pilots something more than his 50 seat jet pilots. But my guess is that the TSA pilots were chomping at the bit to put the screws to HK, so they probably asked for a lot more than he was offering or willing to pay.

I do not agree with your assessment that is is customary to up the pay of an employee with the passage of time. You increase employees' pay when 1) an employee takes on a more responsible, demanding, or productive position, 2) when the economics of the marketplace dictate an increase in pay, or 3) when he can't get people to work for him at the current wage (which is really saying the same thing as #2).

As an owner, as an entrepenuer, as a risk taker, HK has the right to choose how he will operate HIS company. If he deems it appropriate to freeze, or even reduce, his employee's pay, that his choice, and he will suffer, or enjoy the consequences of that. Don't like what you're getting paid? Think you're worth more? It's a free country. Go ask for a raise. Go find yourself a better set of circumstances.

Or you can attempt to coerce it with union action. Clearly the TSA pilots have chosen door #3. That's fine. But you'd better expect that he is going to respond in kind (i.e. alter ego, whipsaw, whatever). You guys are pulling your stunts (slowdown, fly safe, etc) in order to exert your influece over him. You can't do that, and not expect him flex his muscles as well.

But at the end of the day, should the company fold, HK is out way more than you are. You'll leave the company with exactly what you brought to it: your pilot ratings and experience. If anything, you'll leave with more than you brought too it (more flight time, and a type rating or two). But what I object to is, if you "burn the ######er down, you'll be destroying a lot more than just your own jobs.

I agree that Hulas can do whatever he deems necessary and the pilot group can do whatever they deem necessary. The problem is the RLA blocking the pilots from flexing their muscles and allowing Hulas to flex his. We play on a completely uneven playing field and that has to stop. The commodity in this industry is pilots trained for the job. The government has taken away the pilots' ability to show that his/her skills are worth something and that allows the company to abuse the pilots. As usual, government interference in the private sector has consequences that are detrimental to a group of people. Just one more reason I voted for the only politician that genuinely wants the federal government to remain within its constitutional boundaries. It is interesting to watch the company squirm a bit when a more pro labor president is in office though. I didn't vote for this president and don't support his positions but I'm definitely going to take advantage of the leverage he may give the unions. The point I'm making is, the government has given the airlines an unfair advantage for the past 8 or more years and it's coming to an end. If pilots were allowed to strike when they deemed it necessary, people would have a better understanding of what makes this industry work. Right now, nobody has an appreciation. The RLA is a joke.
 
Or you can attempt to coerce it with union action. Clearly the TSA pilots have chosen door #3. That's fine. But you'd better expect that he is going to respond in kind (i.e. alter ego, whipsaw, whatever). You guys are pulling your stunts (slowdown, fly safe, etc) in order to exert your influece over him. You can't do that, and not expect him flex his muscles as well.


Excuse me, but that's a pretty bold assertion. There are no "stunts" being "pulled" here. We simply show up, do our jobs, and go home. To assume that we are willingly doing a work-slowdown or writing up airplanes that don't need it is flat out wrong and is, frankly, insulting. If you did work here, you should know that we have one damn fine pilot group that won't do those things. Sure, there are a couple pilots out there who may, but that's the case everywhere. We are simply doing our job as it's stated in our GOM and SOP. It's not our fault that over the past year, MX write-ups have gone up almost 100% and it's not our fault that it leads to most of our flights going out late. If it's broken, it's going to get fixed. Get your facts straight before you make an assumption like that again.
 
The problem is the RLA blocking the pilots from flexing their muscles and allowing Hulas to flex his. We play on a completely uneven playing field and that has to stop. The commodity in this industry is pilots trained for the job. The government has taken away the pilots' ability to show that his/her skills are worth something and that allows the company to abuse the pilots. As usual, government interference in the private sector has consequences that are detrimental to a group of people. Just one more reason I voted for the only politician that genuinely wants the federal government to remain within its constitutional boundaries. It is interesting to watch the company squirm a bit when a more pro labor president is in office though. I didn't vote for this president and don't support his positions but I'm definitely going to take advantage of the leverage he may give the unions. The point I'm making is, the government has given the airlines an unfair advantage for the past 8 or more years and it's coming to an end. If pilots were allowed to strike when they deemed it necessary, people would have a better understanding of what makes this industry work. Right now, nobody has an appreciation. The RLA is a joke.

I agree that the two parties are on a completely uneven playing field, but my opinion is that the employees have the advantage. With the possible exception of flight attendants, no other employee group has the ability to completely destroy the company within a matter or months, or even weeks. You have just one one weapon, but unfortunately, it is nuclear, and if you use it, you destroy yourselves, your opponent, and everyone else within a 10 mile radius. So it's a damn good thing that the RLA keeps you from using it the moment you have a disgreement with your employer.

The way I see it, the employer is forced to deal with unionized employees. It's difficult to fire a bad employee, and too expensive and time consuming to replace striking employees. Unions have been so effective in seizing the moral high ground that, even if the employer wanted to recruit replacement workers, I doubt they would have much success. That, combined with the lengthy training process would certainly kill a company before it could get up and running again. So how do you figure the employer has the advantage?

Like a nuclear war, a lot of innocents are killed in these situations. I think of Eastern Airlines. The IAM were bound and determined to get their way with Frank Lorenzo, to the point that they (and later, the pilots) destroyed the company*. If the destruction had just been limited to them, that might have been fine. But tens of thousands of other people lost jobs in the process, not to mention the hardships that were place on EAL's ticket-holding customers.

No one as taken away your ability to "demonstrate your worth." You still can. You are free to walk away any time you want, and seek better circumstances. Takre resonsibility for your own life. If enough people do that, then maybe HK will get the idea that he can't continue doing business the way he does, and still run a successful company. But how dare you destroy the livelihood of hundreds of other employees who, as the saying goes, have no dog in this fight.

I don't know who you voted for, but I feel comfortable in assuring you that our current president is not going to limit government influence in your life or your job. If anything, he will expand it. Look what he's doing with the banking and auto industries: pay caps, production standards, government oversight committees, etc. And it's only been 1 month! How long do you think it will be before those "initiatives" are expanded beyond "eeevillll management?" I'm guessing not long.

* It was not all their fault. Lorenzo, Borman, and even Rickenbacker all had a hand in it. The difference is that the IAM's purpose from the beginning was the destruction of the company (and Lorenzo). You will never convince me that management had the same goal.
 
I agree that the two parties are on a completely uneven playing field, but my opinion is that the employees have the advantage. With the possible exception of flight attendants, no other employee group has the ability to completely destroy the company within a matter or months, or even weeks. You have just one one weapon, but unfortunately, it is nuclear, and if you use it, you destroy yourselves, your opponent, and everyone else within a 10 mile radius. So it's a damn good thing that the RLA keeps you from using it the moment you have a disgreement with your employer.

Which legal option is that? 'Cause god knows we would have used it here at PCL by now.....

If you're talking about a strike, the employer also has their version: lock out. Fact is NO ONE wants a strike. You seem to think that we'd strike at the drop of a hat if we could, and that's totally incorrect. It's a last option to a hopeless situation, and the RLA, coupled with a NMB that has a certain mindset, keeps us from even THREATENING a strike. Meanwhile, management gets to keep going with business as usual, knowing that we could talk about a strike, but it will never actually happen. Therefore, we don't even HAVE said "nuclear" option. No pilot wants to strike their employer into non-existence. It's asinine and self destructive.

The way I see it, the employer is forced to deal with unionized employees. It's difficult to fire a bad employee, and too expensive and time consuming to replace striking employees. Unions have been so effective in seizing the moral high ground that, even if the employer wanted to recruit replacement workers, I doubt they would have much success. That, combined with the lengthy training process would certainly kill a company before it could get up and running again. So how do you figure the employer has the advantage?

Well, first off, the employer has no doubt done something to force the cause of unionization. Skywest is a firm example of pilots that are mostly happy with their job and their relationship with management. Colgan, on the other hand, is a pilot group that saw their company shift from a family atmosphere (which is the reason some of those pilots chose to work for that particular airline) to a management philosophy that nickled and dimed their employees to death or flat out ignored certain promises given. I have confidence that if management at Colgan had followed through on most of the pie in the sky promises they made, Colgan would still be a non-union carrier. As it is, management are the ones that force employees into unionizing. I'd rather keep my 1.9% per paycheck, but I have zero faith and trust in my management. That lack of faith isn't from what people have said or told me, it's based on personal observations of actions and policies of the management team themselves. As for how the employer has the advantage....well, if we truly DID have an advantage, we wouldn't be in contract negotiations going on five years. We don't negotiate for the sheer fun of it.

Like a nuclear war, a lot of innocents are killed in these situations. I think of Eastern Airlines. The IAM were bound and determined to get their way with Frank Lorenzo, to the point that they (and later, the pilots) destroyed the company. If the destruction had just been limited to them, that might have been fine. But tens of thousands of other people lost jobs in the process, not to mention the hardships that were place on EAL's ticket-holding customers.

True, innocent people do suffer when a company is brought down b/c of a strike. But there are two sides to the table. You can't lay 100% of the blame at the IAM or the pilots. Management also can play the give and take game. And what would have the pilots and mechanics do? Give up their dignity, way of life and in some cases family to save other people's jobs? I have friends that are rampers and customer service agents at Pinnacle, and I do my best to explain our situation. 95% agree with me and understand what's going on as well as the consequences. But, at the end of the day the people I'm concerned with most are my family. I refuse to just roll over for the sake of the company and the others that work there on issues that affect my family such as financial security, health insurance and time at home. We've got guys here at Pinnacle that haven't seen a pay raise in 5 years b/c of these negotiations, yet they've seen inflation rise and their 401Ks fall. Are you saying they should just roll over and take it for the good of the company?

If enough people do that, then maybe HK will get the idea that he can't continue doing business the way he does, and still run a successful company. But how dare you destroy the livelihood of hundreds of other employees who, as the saying goes, have no dog in this fight.

Once again, there's two sides to the table. HK can just as easily meet the pilots in the middle on certain issues, and it'll more than likely be a done deal. I'd be willing to bet that he HOPES the pilots strike or some how close down TSA. Then, magically, GoJets will see a LOT of growth. He can even then point the finger at the pilots for the demise of the company even though he could easily have saved it AND maintained profitability.

I don't know who you voted for, but I feel comfortable in assuring you that our current president is not going to limit government influence in your life or your job. If anything, he will expand it. Look what he's doing with the banking and auto industries: pay caps, production standards, government oversight committees, etc. And it's only been 1 month! How long do you think it will be before those "initiatives" are expanded beyond "eeevillll management?" I'm guessing not long.

Actually, steps are already being taken to help us out. It's more of an NMB issue that's gridlocked everything. In a fair world, the NMB would objectively look at what's going on in each individual negotiation and make a determination from there. That's how the system was designed. Unfortunately, the last administration made a "no airline strikes on my watch" determination, and *poof*, ASA, TSA and PCL were mired in negotiations that showed no signs of going anywhere. ASA eventually got theirs fixed, although I'm sure you disagree with their techniques. However, those techniques worked and if not for the current economic issues, everyone would still be employed there, and more than likely new hiring would be occurring.....despite the fact that management said ASA pilots' requests in negotiations were out of line. In the case of Pinnacle, it's very difficult for us to take a management seriously that says "that'll bankrupt the airline" then goes out, buys another airline (which until recently was LOSING $5 million a quarter), loses millions of dollars in a stock market gamble and continued to give themselves bonuses until reality checked by the economic crisis.
 
Secondly, what makes you think that he could "easily up the pay?" He only gets paid so much from United.

Because he did it for the GoJet pilots. He didn't offer the TSA pilots anything close to what he voluntarily paid the non-union GoJet pilots before GoJet even had a union. This is the most obvious piece of union-busting since 1989, and you still don't recognize it. :banghead:

But my guess is that the TSA pilots were chomping at the bit to put the screws to HK, so they probably asked for a lot more than he was offering or willing to pay.

Your argument falls apart when you see that he offered his non-union scum a lot more money than he was willing to give his unionized TSA pilots.

I do not agree with your assessment that is is customary to up the pay of an employee with the passage of time.
I don't care what happens in your corporate world (or whatever the hell profession you're in), but that is customary in this industry. You are rewarded for your loyalty to the company with increased longevity pay. It's been that way in this business for over three-quarters of a century.

As an owner, as an entrepenuer, as a risk taker, HK has the right to choose how he will operate HIS company. If he deems it appropriate to freeze, or even reduce, his employee's pay, that his choice, and he will suffer, or enjoy the consequences of that.
No, actually, that's not his choice. He has to deal with a legally recognized collective bargaining agent.

But at the end of the day, should the company fold, HK is out way more than you are.
...... Hulas will leave with his multi-millions still in the bank. The employees leave with nothing but shattered careers and lives.

I agree that the two parties are on a completely uneven playing field, but my opinion is that the employees have the advantage.

And the award for most delusional JC member goes to.......Skydog!!! :rolleyes:

The RLA is tilted so far in management's favor that labor barely has any leverage at all. If you don't see that, then you're not being honest with yourself.

So how do you figure the employer has the advantage?
Because labor hasn't been allowed to strike. Without self-help, labor has virtually no leverage. In the mean time, management "reinterprets" the contract, illegally terminates union volunteers, intimidates prospective volunteers, and refuses to bargain in good faith. Where is that labor advantage again?

I think of Eastern Airlines. The IAM were bound and determined to get their way with Frank Lorenzo, to the point that they (and later, the pilots) destroyed the company*.
You really shouldn't use EAL as an example when I'm around, because I'm an EAL labor aficionado. ;) Your facts are wrong. Charlie Bryan of the IAM certainly had a bone to pick with Lorenzo, but that had nothing to do with the strike. The strike was centered around the fact that the IAM had already taken multiple concessionary agreements over the previous decade and had seen nothing in return. Instead of using them to benefit the company, Lorenzo instead used them as a ploy to buy himself more time to siphon off EAL assets to send to his other Texas Air holding, Continental. CAL was the only airline he actually cared about growing, and EAL was just a way to leach some assets to build it up. If he destroyed EAL in the process, that was fine with him, and to hell with the thousands of employees that he destroyed in the process. He never had any intention of keeping EAL alive. It was just a tool to be used to build up his favorite holding, CAL.

No one as taken away your ability to "demonstrate your worth."
The NMB under Shrub took away that right by refusing to adhere to the intent of the RLA. It looks like the new sheriff in town is finally going to correct that injustice.

* It was not all their fault. Lorenzo, Borman, and even Rickenbacker all had a hand in it. The difference is that the IAM's purpose from the beginning was the destruction of the company (and Lorenzo). You will never convince me that management had the same goal.
You need to study your history. I suggest you start with the book "Grounded: Frank Lorenzo and the Destruction of Eastern Airlines."
 
No one as taken away your ability to "demonstrate your worth." You still can. You are free to walk away any time you want, and seek better circumstances. Takre resonsibility for your own life.
.

This is very stupid. Again, you are equating this job to a 9 to 5 scheduling, corp ladder type job. Where will a pilot go? There are only so many airlines to chose from. If only one or two are hiring, you are screwed. This is the reason why we have unions, look into it. Actually the reason why we have unions is because of people like you. And you say you fly for Air Wisconsin? I'm curious why you didn't stay with TSA to fly for your boss Hulas?
 
This is very stupid. Again, you are equating this job to a 9 to 5 scheduling, corp ladder type job. Where will a pilot go? There are only so many airlines to chose from. If only one or two are hiring, you are screwed. This is the reason why we have unions, look into it. Actually the reason why we have unions is because of people like you. And you say you fly for Air Wisconsin? I'm curious why you didn't stay with TSA to fly for your boss Hulas?

Your choices, brother. There's a million ways to make a living. You chose to become a pilot. You choose, every day, to continue being a pilot. I'm sorry that your choices aren't working out for you, but that's no one's responsibility but your own.

And, I left TSA precisely because I didn't like the way HK did things. Likewise, I left AWAC and the flying profession altogether because it didn't meet my needs.
 
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