Missed crossing altitude

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
"DANDY at fifteen-hundred is MANDY!" You'd be surprised how many people on the other side of the radio don't even try to visualize the 3D picture of EWR 22 arrivals and TEB 24 depatures. "So... 1,500 is weird right? Why not 2K? Oh because EWR traffic will be above you at 2K." Then the light bulb clicks and get you can see it in their face.... "Oh."
you’d be surprised how many people think the “expect FL380 ten minutes after departure” means climb to that altitude immediately
 

sefro

Well-Known Member
There’s only 2 crossing restrictions in my airspace I care about. DANDY at 1500, and DYLIN at 8000 on the PHLBO. If you’re high for DYLIN, I will tell you to keep descending and worry about your speed after you’re level. The LGA arrival airspace starts at DYLIN at 9-10k. I hate it when ZDC descends you guys late and then just ships you to me like everything is just peachy.
Going into TEB "NXXXXX I see you slowing down.. 250KTS till I say otherwise."
 

BigZ

Well-Known Member
SkyWest CRJ got a chewing the other day. LOC 9R into ORD, cleared to cross the 9000 foot fix at or above 7000, cleared for the localizer approach (they were a couple of planes behind us). They got a talk about not respecting the subsequent altitudes (one after 9k is 8k then 7k, not sure what they were trying to bust). The way it worked out for me is I had the same clearance and hit the 9k at about 9, 8 at 8 and so forth (because vnav lazy ass airplane). Again, not sure what their booboo was, but if cleared to cross a 9000 fix at or above 7000, and the next fix is 8000, are you supposed to respect that? For all I know they might have started down below 7000 early, but we did have a discussion about the possible stuff to ASAP there
 

Stinger

Well-Known Member
SkyWest CRJ got a chewing the other day. LOC 9R into ORD, cleared to cross the 9000 foot fix at or above 7000, cleared for the localizer approach (they were a couple of planes behind us). They got a talk about not respecting the subsequent altitudes (one after 9k is 8k then 7k, not sure what they were trying to bust). The way it worked out for me is I had the same clearance and hit the 9k at about 9, 8 at 8 and so forth (because vnav lazy ass airplane). Again, not sure what their booboo was, but if cleared to cross a 9000 fix at or above 7000, and the next fix is 8000, are you supposed to respect that? For all I know they might have started down below 7000 early, but we did have a discussion about the possible stuff to ASAP there
That's how SKW3567 almost crashed into a mountain on approach to MFR.
 

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
That's how SKW3567 almost crashed into a mountain on approach to MFR.
damn that could have been ugly.

so correct if I’m wrong though, cause that article seems to blame the pilots entirely, but that was def an ATC deal wasn’t it? If you tell someone to cross a fix at or above that gives you permission to descend to that “at” altitude immediately unless you give other restrictions.
 

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
Yes. Almost totally on ATC, except the pilot should also have an awareness at least of what's around them.
thats what I thought but the way the article is written it had me thinking I’ve been doing it wrong all these years lol
 

sefro

Well-Known Member
SkyWest CRJ got a chewing the other day. LOC 9R into ORD, cleared to cross the 9000 foot fix at or above 7000, cleared for the localizer approach (they were a couple of planes behind us). They got a talk about not respecting the subsequent altitudes (one after 9k is 8k then 7k, not sure what they were trying to bust). The way it worked out for me is I had the same clearance and hit the 9k at about 9, 8 at 8 and so forth (because vnav lazy ass airplane). Again, not sure what their booboo was, but if cleared to cross a 9000 fix at or above 7000, and the next fix is 8000, are you supposed to respect that? For all I know they might have started down below 7000 early, but we did have a discussion about the possible stuff to ASAP there
AIM 5-4-7 B After the aircraft is so established, published altitudes apply to descent within each succeeding route or approach segment unless a different altitude is assigned by ATC.
My understanding is that you can descend immediately to 7000 but you cannot go any lower till you are on a segment with an altitude lower than 7000. Unless you are in Canada.....
 

BigZ

Well-Known Member
AIM 5-4-7 B After the aircraft is so established, published altitudes apply to descent within each succeeding route or approach segment unless a different altitude is assigned by ATC.
My understanding is that you can descend immediately to 7000 but you cannot go any lower till you are on a segment with an altitude lower than 7000. Unless you are in Canada.....
That was my understanding too, except, apparently, cross at or above cleared for the approach means something different when subsequent fix has higher alt than the "at". Or I'm going nuts, that's a possibility too
 

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
AIM 5-4-7 B After the aircraft is so established, published altitudes apply to descent within each succeeding route or approach segment unless a different altitude is assigned by ATC.
My understanding is that you can descend immediately to 7000 but you cannot go any lower till you are on a segment with an altitude lower than 7000. Unless you are in Canada.....
this is correct
 

BigZ

Well-Known Member
this is correct
I'm being slow
You tell me "cross ADLMN at or above 7000, cleared LOC 9R approach" what do you expect I'd do?
Recording
First conversation at about 18:30, second 20:00 or so

PS disregard the table, phone doing weird stuff on this forum
 

nabbyfan

Well-Known Member
I'm being slow
You tell me "cross ADLMN at or above 7000, cleared LOC 9R approach" what do you expect I'd do?
Recording
First conversation at about 18:30, second 20:00 or so

PS disregard the table, phone doing weird stuff on this forum
Im a Center guy, but ADLMN at or above 7000, then follow the rest of the altitudes is what Id expect. If they want to be ADLMN at 7 instead of 8, thats fine, but I would still expect them to hit the rest of the altitudes. Definitely cant descend any further than 7000 until FOTTR.

I train my trainees based on the other SKW example above. In the Center giving approaches is pretty simple, find the lowest altitude we can go to based on the Chart or on the MEA blocks, Cross the IAF at or above that, cleared approach. Thats pretty much all there is to it for us haha.
 

BigZ

Well-Known Member
Im a Center guy, but ADLMN at or above 7000, then follow the rest of the altitudes is what Id expect. If they want to be ADLMN at 7 instead of 8, thats fine, but I would still expect them to hit the rest of the altitudes. Definitely cant descend any further than 7000 until FOTTR.

I train my trainees based on the other SKW example above. In the Center giving approaches is pretty simple, find the lowest altitude we can go to based on the Chart or on the MEA blocks, Cross the IAF at or above that, cleared approach. Thats pretty much all there is to it for us haha.
Thank you, that's how I understand it too.
Listened to the tape again, I think I was getting confused by what approach is saying- "fixes after alderman have hard altitudes, do they not?" - well, the first one after alderman is 8000. Guess further down the line he says "those are also at or above (7000? Couldn't make it out - but this would makes sense. Guess SKW just tried to keep descending after 7000 at ADLMN
 

Stinger

Well-Known Member

You tell me "cross ADLMN at or above 7000, cleared LOC 9R approach" what do you expect I'd do?
Recording
First conversation at about 18:30, second 20:00 or so

PS disregard the table, phone doing weird stuff on this forum
I'd expect exactly what the SKW pilot did. ADLMN no lower than 7000 and maintain 7000 until reaching WASCO. If the controller didn't want that, he should be saying "ADLMN at or above 9000."

Im a Center guy, but ADLMN at or above 7000, then follow the rest of the altitudes is what Id expect. If they want to be ADLMN at 7 instead of 8, thats fine, but I would still expect them to hit the rest of the altitudes. Definitely cant descend any further than 7000 until FOTTR.

I train my trainees based on the other SKW example above. In the Center giving approaches is pretty simple, find the lowest altitude we can go to based on the Chart or on the MEA blocks, Cross the IAF at or above that, cleared approach. Thats pretty much all there is to it for us haha.
Is your MEA block ever lower than the published IAF altitude? I know an MIA probably is, but not sure what the MEA would be like. But why not just tell pilots to cross the IAF at or above the published IAF altitude?
 

cmac88

Well-Known Member
Im a Center guy, but ADLMN at or above 7000, then follow the rest of the altitudes is what Id expect. If they want to be ADLMN at 7 instead of 8, thats fine, but I would still expect them to hit the rest of the altitudes. Definitely cant descend any further than 7000 until FOTTR.

I train my trainees based on the other SKW example above. In the Center giving approaches is pretty simple, find the lowest altitude we can go to based on the Chart or on the MEA blocks, Cross the IAF at or above that, cleared approach. Thats pretty much all there is to it for us haha.
Not sure I'm reading you right but there are instances where the initial altitude on an approach is higher then our MIA, thus you should assign the higher of the 2 which is why even as an en route guy(like me) you need to actually look at the approach plate. We have a couple like this in our airspace and its been a common training point that is still missed 90% of the time. As for the pilots on here if you are assigned a lower altitude then the initial you NEED to question it, certainly in the en route environment. Actually on that note question every approach clearance in the en route world . I'm not sure if the above skywest incident is the same one im thinking of but I believe this is the exact scenario where the MIA where the clearance was given was lower then the initial alt thus leading to the situation.

*edit: re-reading your post seems we are on the same page.... browsing on my half broken phone
 

cmac88

Well-Known Member
SkyWest CRJ got a chewing the other day. LOC 9R into ORD, cleared to cross the 9000 foot fix at or above 7000, cleared for the localizer approach (they were a couple of planes behind us). They got a talk about not respecting the subsequent altitudes (one after 9k is 8k then 7k, not sure what they were trying to bust). The way it worked out for me is I had the same clearance and hit the 9k at about 9, 8 at 8 and so forth (because vnav lazy ass airplane). Again, not sure what their booboo was, but if cleared to cross a 9000 fix at or above 7000, and the next fix is 8000, are you supposed to respect that? For all I know they might have started down below 7000 early, but we did have a discussion about the possible stuff to ASAP there
TBH this sounds like a controller not remembering or understanding what they are assigning.
 
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