Missed crossing altitude

[troopernflight]

If you missed crossing an intersection at an assigned altitude by 800 feet (realized late to descend), and the controller didn’t say anything, could it still be a problem? We didn’t get called out for a deviation or anything at the time, nor did the controller even mention it. I was curious if the audit system had a way to catch it and give us a delayed pilot deviation. Thanks.

 

[greg1016]

If you missed crossing an intersection at an assigned altitude by 800 feet (realized late to descend), and the controller didn’t say anything, could it still be a problem? We didn’t get called out for a deviation or anything at the time, nor did the controller even mention it. I was curious if the audit system had a way to catch it and give us a delayed pilot deviation. Thanks.

File a NASA report and fuggedaboutit

 

[NovemberEcho]

If you didn’t hear anything about it on freq you don’t have anything to worry about. There’s no snitch for that that the computer will flag for later review.

 

[luke3]

 

[DE727UPS]

Crossing restrictions are usually about intra-facility letters of agreement. You go from one area of control to another and they standardize the clearance to agree with their normal expectations. It's not a big deal to be off a bit. I remember it was a procedural error rather than a separation error. Controllers highest priority is to keep them separated (anyone remember that tune..."gotta keep'em separated"). As long as the targets don't merge then we have separation. I guess I still have controller envy even though I washed out of the academy in the 80's. Man, I was a good ATA though, back when there was an LA Tracon.

 

[Dphoenix]

If you didn’t hear anything about it on freq you don’t have anything to worry about. There’s no snitch for that that the computer will flag for later review.

I dunno, I personally handled like 8 violations where the pilots never received a brasher but Dallas QC filed something against them. In some cases we were able to solicit ASAPs and get them accepted. My advice would be just file an ASAP now. There's no good reason not to.

 

[NovemberEcho]

I dunno, I personally handled like 8 violations where the pilots never received a brasher but Dallas QC filed something against them. In some cases we were able to solicit ASAPs and get them accepted. My advice would be just file an ASAP now. There's no good reason not to.

what kind of violations?

 

[A300Capt]

About 20 years ago or so early in the AM I was doing IOE on a new Bus Capt. We got into some deep philosophical discussion about nothing while descending into PHL. I suddenly realized we were gonna be 5-600ft high on a STAR crossing restriction. I notified ATC and mumbled something about strong tailwinds, meteor showers and possible space aliens. He basically said to, “ Just do the best you can....Oh, and BTW....you missed the last one too“!

ASAP filed. Never heard another peep. Lesson learned....

 

[NovemberEcho]

There’s only 2 crossing restrictions in my airspace I care about. DANDY at 1500, and DYLIN at 8000 on the PHLBO. If you’re high for DYLIN, I will tell you to keep descending and worry about your speed after you’re level. The LGA arrival airspace starts at DYLIN at 9-10k. I hate it when ZDC descends you guys late and then just ships you to me like everything is just peachy.

 

[Dphoenix]

what kind of violations?

Well, there was a bunch, I know one was a late turn on a departure out of LAX, but the bulk were altitude busts.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Well, there was a bunch, I know one was a late turn on a departure out of LAX, but the bulk were altitude busts.

interesting. I had no idea QA even looked at that if nothing was mentioned

 

[majorpilot]

interesting. I had no idea QA even looked at that if nothing was mentioned

I suspect controller workload is a factor. If they’re saturated, they may elect to deal with it later. Nothing says the offending pilot must be notified “on the spot.”

Agree with all others advocating ASAP/ASRS. We know when we do it, just “fess up,” file, contribute to the learning and gain some protection.

 

[Dphoenix]

interesting. I had no idea QA even looked at that if nothing was mentioned

I think they're pulling data and stuff is flagging that the controller didn't mention and/or care about but, they do. That's why we'd always advise anybody to just file, because there was literally no harm in filing, and hey, maybe somebody could learn something. We had a ton of crews busting the same crossing restriction out of SNA, and I even jumpsat and watched a QX crew bust it (despite me telling them 3 times in as nice a way a jumpseater can, hey, you aren't gonna make that crossing restriction...). Because of the ASAPs that went along with one of the PDs on it, we were able to get a lot more awareness out there to the pilot group and get feedback to the controllers as well.

 

[DE727UPS]

I think sometimes the QA guy is bored or on a vendetta for his own personal upward mobility.

 

[cmac88]

In my 9 years I know of 3 supes that went to QA at the regional office and all 3 were authoritarian types that felt like they were getting stepped all over as supervisors. I'm guessing that is more the norm then not unfortunately.

 

[nabbyfan]

Well, there was a bunch, I know one was a late turn on a departure out of LAX, but the bulk were altitude busts.

My area at work we have a bunch of Warning areas that go hot/cold randomly, and the SID off of LAX to the NW has to change depending on the current configuration. The most restrictive configuration, there’s about a 6 mile wide corridor to get all the departures through. Miss a turn or altitude restriction on those SIDs and you’re either going into a live fire area where they have no ability to miss you, or you’re going into the arrivals.

Real crappy situation, but any mistakes there and we kind of have to give the number. It’s a lot of fun during the heavy Asian outbound push when its 100 degrees out, trying to get a bunch of Supers with poor English to climb and get through haha

 

[N90-EWR]

There’s only 2 crossing restrictions in my airspace I care about. DANDY at 1500, and DYLIN at 8000 on the PHLBO. If you’re high for DYLIN, I will tell you to keep descending and worry about your speed after you’re level. The LGA arrival airspace starts at DYLIN at 9-10k. I hate it when ZDC descends you guys late and then just ships you to me like everything is just peachy.

You forgot WENTZ

 

[NovemberEcho]

You forgot WENTZ

nah we’re talking about descents

 

[Prino]

what kind of violations?

My guess is the kind of violations where guys fly through the bravo without a clearance then refuse to get out

 

[CFI A&P]

There’s only 2 crossing restrictions in my airspace I care about. DANDY at 1500

"DANDY at fifteen-hundred is MANDY!" You'd be surprised how many people on the other side of the radio don't even try to visualize the 3D picture of EWR 22 arrivals and TEB 24 departures. "So... 1,500 is weird right? Why not 2K? Oh because EWR traffic will be above you at 2K." Then the light bulb clicks and get you can see it in their face.... "Oh."