Millitary ATC rant

[USMCmech]

What is up with millitary ATC? Specifically the Air Scouts (I haven't flown into a NAS or MCAS since I was a PPL).

I guess it's a experiance/culture/training issue, and I know they are really trying to help. However, they seem to want to both keep any civilian pilot WAY far away from thier airspace, and want to hold your hand all the way to the runway.

My last straw was this week over Vance. We fly into Enid OK, EVERY NIGHT. But whenever Vance is still open and controlling that sector they will vector you 20-30 miles around their class D. Then, even after I've called the field in sight 3 times, they still give me turns to the runway. I've finally just given up and cancel IFR as soon as they try to turn me, overfly their airspace, and drop hard into Enid. The tower controller at Enid handels it without hesitation, but the Vance controllers got all flustered.

I've gotten similar treatment at most other Air Force bases I've flow into or around. No airforce controller has ever sent me over midfield above the pattern altitude, which is often the simplest way to stay out of everybodys way. Even when I've sugested it, they say they can't do it.


Oh, yeah,

Who was the idiot that decided to paint training aircraft camoflauge grey?

"Traffic 12 oclock, two T-38s, opposite direction, 500 feet below you"

Like, I'm ever going to see them untill it's too late.

 

[Hacker15e]

Who was the idiot that decided to paint training aircraft camoflauge grey?

Sorry to inconvenience you, but it's for the training of the USAF pilots.

 

[RetiredATLATC]

Who was the idiot that decided to paint training aircraft camoflauge grey?

"Traffic 12 oclock, two T-38s, opposite direction, 500 feet below you"

Like, I'm ever going to see them untill it's too late.

ATC 7110.65 required merging target procedures.

 

[EDUC8-or]

I like it when the initial altitude on your clearance is 5000, but they tell you to maintain 1000 during your takeoff roll due to an overflight.

Even better yet, how about telling you to reject around 120 knots because they cleared some F-15's to do a fly-by and the timing was off.

 

[USMCmech]

Sorry to inconvenience you, but it's for the training of the USAF pilots.

That's my point. A training aircraft that can't even mount any ordance, will never be deployed, and is flown by (mostly) low time new pilots, dosen't need to be camoflauged. Heck Randolph even has some T-6s painted camo.

I can never spot a T-38 convergeing untill the last second. It's a major collision hazard. "See and avoid" is just wishfull thinking with those things.

The Navy paints thier trainers neon orange, and it makes a huge difference.


Tactical aircraft obviously NEED to be camo, but not trainers.

 

[germb747]

If you had a clue what the big picture was around the UPT bases, you probably wouldn't want to hang out within 20-30 miles of the field. They're just doing their job; if you don't want to deal with them then cancel or stay away from military airspace.

 

[ppragman]

f you had a clue what the big picture was around the UPT bases, you probably wouldn't want to hang out within 20-30 miles of the field. They're just doing their job; if you don't want to deal with them then cancel or stay away from military airspace.

the sky is everyones, there has to be a reasonable compromise to situations like this, and sometimes the option of "cancel or stay away" isn't exactly a good one. Let's think up a good solution, I'm not even sure where this field is at, what's the identifier?

 

[RetiredATLATC]

the sky is everyones You're kidding right?, there has to be a reasonable compromise to situations like this, and sometimes the option of "cancel or stay away" isn't exactly a good one. Let's think up a good solution, I'm not even sure where this field is at, what's the identifier?

 

[guardguy]

I trained at Vance and we had two civilian planes land on the wrong runway and two land at Vance thinking it was a different field. I'm a civilian pilot as well, but non-military aircraft don't exactly have the best track record coming through the airspace. At any given time we have 12 aircraft just on the inside runway pattern alone. That doesn't count the T-38s on the outside runway and the T-1s on the Center runway shooting approaches. Plus the MOAs are close by and always full and we get random civilian traffic buzzing through those all the time. If I was a controller, I'd vector you around too.

 

[Cptnchia]

I trained at Vance and we had two civilian planes land on the wrong runway and two land at Vance thinking it was a different field. I'm a civilian pilot as well, but non-military aircraft don't exactly have the best track record coming through the airspace.

There is a difference between "civilian" aircraft and "commercial" aircraft.

 

[Hacker15e]

That's my point. A training aircraft that can't even mount any ordance, will never be deployed, and is flown by (mostly) low time new pilots, dosen't need to be camoflauged. Heck Randolph even has some T-6s painted camo.

The aviators in training need to have the ability to maneuver with -- and against -- other aircraft that are painted low visibility colors.

Not too many MiG-29s are painted high-visibility orange.

 

[guardguy]

There is a difference between "civilian" aircraft and "commercial" aircraft.

true... but I've never seen commercial traffic come into Enid... and the original poster used "civilian".

Vance is a bad example for the original poster's Military ATC rant. It's one of 4 primary training bases for the Air Force and can be the busiest airspace anyone's ever seen. Plus the controllers are being trained as well. Like I said before, because of the amount of student pilots in the air at any given time, I'd vector you away too.

 

[rickyrhodesii]

Give me a minute to help you out here! I was a controller at good 'ole END, now at Columbus...oh and at Randolph! I think I can shed some light on your frustrations.

First, Vance is/was the second busiest airfield in the AF, behind Nellis (who runs 24 hour ops) and Columbus falls closely behind the two. Not making an excuse, just a fun fact for you! It was common practice to vector arrivals for Woodring well South or North of Vance. Any non-military aircraft for that matter was generally kept at least 15-20 NM from hives nest, or Vance.

Departures come off, all three runways simultaneously, climbing as high as FL230. That’s why we wouldn't normally take you over the departure end. Some -38’s would request unrestricted climbs or deletion of altitude restrictions on departure for various training or maintenance checks.

We wouldn’t take you over the field because a number of the departures would depart and hook right around on a “downwind” kind of flight path also climbing high. Also, the VFR traffic pattern extended past 3k on occasions when the -6s are executing ELPs.

So, as you can see, generically the only option left is to take Woodring arrivals over the approach end side of the field. We keep the Woodring arrivals high to keep the flow of numerous arrivals into Vance’s three runways coming. Yeah, running an arrival pattern for three runways is kind of difficult with two arrival positions and not to mention all training aircraft! Working at Vance and Columbus has made me loose precious years of my life!

When Great Lakes flew through, it was never pretty either. The base is surrounded by MOAs, 7 or 8k through FL230, I can’t remember the base. The MOAs out to the west extend from 10NM from Vance out to 90 NM. So the B-1900 would truck through 90 miles of MOA with numerous -38’s. I don’t miss that flight. And yes, they're usually always active with the hard to see -38s, -1s and -6's.

On a side note, it's a nightmare when pilots chose to fly though the MOA and not talk to ATC. Who do you think get's blamed for the close calls...? Well, the pilot’s generally fusses at us, ATC. Sorry but I can’t give you traffic if I don’t know you’re there! Just talk to me, PLEASE! I’m trying to do my job!

My advice for you, if you’d like a better explanation, is to call Woodring tower and ask for the number for the Watch Supervisor at Vance. I’m sure they’d be happy to talk to you!

 

[EDUC8-or]

f you had a clue what the big picture was around the UPT bases, you probably wouldn't want to hang out within 20-30 miles of the field. They're just doing their job; if you don't want to deal with them then cancel or stay away from military airspace.

I try to stay away, but my 121 carrier might get ticked if I divert.

 

[USMCmech]

I think I can shed some light on your frustrations

Thanks Rickey, that does help a lot.

I completely understand why you would want to keep the weekend warior bugsmasher guys WELL AWAY from any UPT base. If I were going to be on that run much longer, I would try to work something out with the supervisor at Vance. There is a big difference from a student pilot on his cross country, and a professional pilot who flys that same run nightly.


And when you call out T-38s as traffic belive me I'm looking, just know that there is almost no way I'm ever going to see them before our targets merge. I think a B-2 is easier to spot visually.

 

[rickyrhodesii]

I'm sure there was more to your situation(s), I can only give you what I remember doing while I was there, almost two years ago. But, it doesn't sound like things have changed much.

Just curious, where are you coming from?

One more fun fact for you: The AF is hurting for controller just like the FAA. What does that mean for you? The majority of the time, you're probably talking to a controller in training. So, you take controllers in training + pilot in training = lots of training and lots of madness!

I understand your situation on looking for traffic. When I fly around Columbus, I don't see half the -38s, -1s, -37s or -6s they call out to me! I feel like I'm blind half the time.

When I worked in the tower at Randolph AFB, TX (San Antonio) it was difficult to see the trainers on cloudy and hazy days. I understand the AF's reason for the paint scheme, but it really makes it tough to find those little planes a controller and pilot.

 

[taseal]

The aviators in training need to have the ability to maneuver with -- and against -- other aircraft that are painted low visibility colors.

Not too many MiG-29s are painted high-visibility orange.

T38s do ACM?

 

[USMCmech]

Just curious, where are you coming from?

One more fun fact for you: The AF is hurting for controller just like the FAA. What does that mean for you? The majority of the time, you're probably talking to a controller in training. So, you take controllers in training + pilot in training = lots of training and lots of madness!

Martex 637, from WWR, continuing to TUL. Same run thats been there for years.


Yeah, I've been hearing a lot of trainies out there. That is one of the things I deffinately notice about USAF controllers, they don't seem to have experianced anything other than USAF SOP. Therfore when Mr freight dog shows up asking to head straight to the field and drop 3,000 ft in 3 miles, they don't think that's possible. Not only is it possible, it's FUN.

 

[aloft]

Sorry to inconvenience you, but it's for the training of the USAF pilots.

What about all the bright white T-1s? And how did the USAF survive with white T-38s for DECADES?

I agree, gray aircraft are a flight hazard to everyone else who uses the same skies and doesn't have the benefit of TCAS, TIS, etc.

 

[rickyrhodesii]

Martex 637, from WWR, continuing to TUL. Same run thats been there for years.


Yeah, I've been hearing a lot of trainies out there. That is one of the things I deffinately notice about USAF controllers, they don't seem to have experianced anything other than USAF SOP. Therfore when Mr freight dog shows up asking to head straight to the field and drop 3,000 ft in 3 miles, they don't think that's possible. Not only is it possible, it's FUN.

Wow! I remember that run or one much like it. Granted when I was there, traffic was usual wrapping up for the day and we could give them direct Woodring.

You assumption is sad, but true! Many guys experience just one base and turn the little, simple request into a furball of over complicated procedures.

I'll email some of my buddies and tell them to hook up Martex637!