Mid-Air Intercept by ICE

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I disagree with this. You cannot stop random acts of violence consistently. Violent crime is on the decline, as an officer you're incredibly unlikely to be killed in the line of duty:

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You can disagree all you like. But would you want to the be the one walking around with a lax attitude and be the next one who gets shot, run over, stabbed, etc; because some statistic told you you had nothing to worry about, supposedly? So you would go into a domestic violence call, where everything is calm at the moment, with a laxidasical attitude, simply because everything seems ok at the moment?

C'mon man, you're smarter than this. Apply what you are saying to flying, and it doesn't fit.

Truthfully, its just something you have to experience firsthand.

For the 1000th time, any of this mental alertness is transparent to the people being dealt with, and will vary based on what's being encountered.
 
The problem is that power corrupts. Being a law enforcement official means you have great power. I've never been treated poorly by police personally, but I've seen and heard about people being strongarmed and abused by the police on a consistent basis. Generally speaking they can do anything they want to you, all of the time - and generally speaking you'll be powerless to stop them. It's not exactly easy to yell "unreasonable search and seizure!" with a weapon pointed at you, additionally, failure to comply any of the time can result in trumped up charges (passive resistance comes to mind), a disrespect for you and your person and the assumption that you are guilty of something - now they just have to find out what. Additionally, for those that travel a lot, realize that the laws are very different from state to state, that your constitutional laws are upheld differently from state to state (try bringing a gun into California, or forming a state workers Union in Wisconsin), that often times LEOs aren't held to the same standards from state to state. Your generally polite state trooper in Minnesota might have a overbearing and thuggish cousin in Dallas.

In the cases you've "seen and heard" (but never experienced personally), do you know the facts of the entire situation? They could be legit, or they could not be.

Are there lousy cops? Sure there are. Are there lousy citizens? Sure there are.

Trumped up charges, illegal searches, etc, will come out in the subsequent investigation. And the cops can get into some real trouble for it.

Travel alot and want to take a gun with you, then YOU should know the laws of the state you are travelling to regarding guns. It's as simple as going to the NRA website.

The police these days are armed for war as well. Take a look at an officer's uniform from the 70s, compare it with today. Police forces have SWAT teams, battle wagons, automatic weapons, and won't hesitate to use all of them. Now they're associated with DHS, and while budgets have grown, population growth has far outpaced staffing in many cities - this leads to a sociological experiment where the police - now "out numbered" by "bad guys" - have to defend themselves from those lawless people from outside - even though violent crime has been dropping in recent years. It hasn't helped that our society has grown a penal system that's based on profit based incarceration.

Times change, kid. Take a look at airplanes of the 70s and compare them with today.

While there are problems with the legal system (far outside the scope of what we're talking about here), things like SWAT teams, etc, have their appropriate use for appropriate situations. Have they ever been used improperly? Am sure they have. Should they be used properly? Of course.

No, it's not an individual law enforcement officer's fault that they're forced to be suspicious over everything, but we have a system that uses cops for city revenue growth instead of law enforcement, and disregards rights in the name of an appeal to authority - if you're not doing anything wrong then why can't I come into your house / look at your plane / search your car / etc? Sorry, but I cannot find any legitimate reason to have faith in law enforcement officers that I don't personally know, because generally, it's not in my best interest to do so as I can be beaten, detained, and cited for resisting arrest and if there aren't any witnesses to show otherwise, I'm hosed.

Remember, no matter what anyone tries to say about "if you're not guilty of anything, why can't I search you", you have the right to refuse a consent search. I don't care how "guilted into it" you're being, either the police have articulable PC for a search, or they have a warrant. Without a warrant and no articulable PC, cops are only discrediting any case they try to make.

In you don't want to have faith in law enforcement, thats fine. Just refrain from calling them if you get into a car accident or have your house robbed while you aren't home; lest they show up and beat you.

Im being facetious, but lets be honest here. You're taking some extreme examples of bad cops and the potential they can do, and painting with a VERY broad brush.
 
I've been around for a lot of years and a lot of miles. Never, ever had a bad experience with a police officer. I don't recall ever hearing any first hand accounts of any either, at least not one that I couldn't attribute at least partially to the citizen involved.
 
In the cases you've "seen and heard" (but never experienced personally), do you know the facts of the entire situation? They could be legit, or they could not be.
Are there lousy cops? Sure there are. Are there lousy citizens? Sure there are.

Almost every encounter I've ever had with the police has left me with a positive impression, and I used to seriously consider it as a career.

But as you say, times have changed.

As law enforcement, you hold the power of people's entire future in your hands; you also hold the power of life and death. The simple fact is that when that sort of power has been bestowed upon you, you need to maintain the utmost integrity at all times, and never let it slip. Mistakes may happen, but your integrity must never be compromised.

The problem, as I see it, is the extreme us-versus-them attitude that has taken root in this country. Reading LEOs talking to one another on forums for law enforcement personnel illustrates this attitude very effectively; in the end, you say it should be transparent to the citizen, but in reality it's not.
The simple fact is that abuses of power occur by law enforcement all the time, and law enforcement is second to none in protecting their own.

Now that problem, as near as I can tell, is transparent to law enforcement, because I firmly believe that almost everyone in the field believes that they're doing the right thing, that they're the good guys.
However, police are instrumental in enforcing the tyranny of the majority, judgement in absentia; that entire arm of jurisprudence exists to enforce the law, which is assumed to be just. They exert the full power of the machine of law, and the only check to the justness of a law comes later in the process with the courts.
So far, so good.
The problem is that when civil disobedience, minor crimes, or even asserting ones rights is looked at through the lens of 'us versus them', you get scenes like this:
192897-us-davis-police-lt-john-pike-dousing-seated-students-with-pepper-spray-thumb-610x335-53533.jpg


... or this:

lp_king.jpg


... which are clear breakdowns in integrity, wherein the officer or officers perpetrating the abuse felt completely in the right for their actions at the time. This, combined with what feels like a system bent on gross overcriminalization of the populace (There oughta be a law!) at any expense, leads to a breakdown in the public trust. When police officers threaten, assault, beat, arrest, or otherwise bully people for videotaping them in the course of their duty, for offering to be a witness for a suspect, or even for such uncivil things as calling them names or refusing to desist from a behavior they're otherwise legally engaged in, how can there be an environment of mutual trust?

Trumped up charges, illegal searches, etc, will come out in the subsequent investigation. And the cops can get into some real trouble for it.

... and in some cases the victim of the illegal search, trumped up charge, or the far more common snowballing of charges, can watch their arresting officer get in 'real trouble' while comfortably ensconced in jail, where they won't be released despite the illegality of the initial search.

Travel alot and want to take a gun with you, then YOU should know the laws of the state you are travelling to regarding guns. It's as simple as going to the NRA website.

In a mobile society, with highly localized laws and the mantra 'ignorance of the law is no excuse', it's not the big ones like gun laws that I'm worried about, but things like whether my pocket knife may be considered illegal (They are in some places), or whether that careful U-turn that I just made was legal in the particular residential area and street I was on, while visiting some other part of the country.

When police refuse to use the considerable discretion they're allotted and choose to write a ticket, charge someone, detain someone until they can get a dog to come 'alert' at the squirrel you ran over on the way home so they can rip all the seat cushions and bags out of your vehicle and leave them strewn on the ground ... they do their cause a massive disservice.

When they lie and badger and cajole to obtain a confession, or when they use people's words out of context as evidence of something that they never meant to say, they lead citizens to discussions like this.

I'll emphasize that almost all of my encounters with law enforcement have been relatively positive. I did have an issue last year where I was issued a ticket for 55 in a 35 ... the second ticket I'd received in my life* ... based on a very bad visual estimation. (I was making a 90 degree left turn in my RX-8 at 35 ... I'm sure it looked fast, but it was perfectly safe and, as far as I am aware, legal...) I was polite and courteous, wished him a nice night, and I'm sure my premiums are going to go up significantly due to his error in judgement.
That's the thing... I'm sure the officer went about his night and never thought twice about it... he's just doing his job. He probably felt good about it, in fact. He's protecting the drivers in his area from people going too fast, and that was just one brief interaction in all the work he had to do that night--But to me, it's a significant economic penalty: $400 out of my pocket, after all the fees are tacked on, an indeterminate but likely significant increase in my insurance premiums over the next four years, a blemish on my otherwise relatively spotless record ... you get the drift.

While there are problems with the legal system (far outside the scope of what we're talking about here),

The problem is that as long as you're acting as the arm of the legal system, you're on the hook for its problems as well.

Remember, no matter what anyone tries to say about "if you're not guilty of anything, why can't I search you", you have the right to refuse a consent search. I don't care how "guilted into it" you're being, either the police have articulable PC for a search, or they have a warrant. Without a warrant and no articulable PC, cops are only discrediting any case they try to make.

It shouldn't come to that; there's a double standard that has come to exist to fill the gap between 'innocent until proven guilty' and 'the person is probably guilty of something, even if I don't know what.'; in the end, it doesn't matter how many "false negatives" or wrongful arrests occur, "if it saves only one child..."

In you don't want to have faith in law enforcement, thats fine. Just refrain from calling them if you get into a car accident or have your house robbed while you aren't home; lest they show up and beat you.

That's not the line of a public servant; in 'public service', it should be: "We're here to help if you need us, even if you think you won't."

Im being facetious, but lets be honest here. You're taking some extreme examples of bad cops and the potential they can do, and painting with a VERY broad brush.

I don't necessarily think the brush is that broad, nor the painting unwarranted. I don't know if I've missed it somewhere along the line, but I don't recall anyone saying or implying that all or many police officers are bad in any way... but the bad cops can do irreparable damage to the life of a law-abiding concerned citizen, and the good cops will often defend their power to do it, if not defend them directly.

Look, law-enforcement groupthink is a known phenomena, and I KNOW that there's training that covers it; it doesn't obviate the need for law enforcement in any way, nor does it imply any sort of lack of care or consideration on the part of the officers in question, but it's unwise to categorically deny its existence or defend it without question.

... or something like that.

-Fox

* - The first ticket I received was for 40 in a 35 on my motorcycle, by radar. I absolutely did it, I had absolutely no problem paying the ticket and taking the hit. People had been complaining about motorcycles 'racing' through my neighborhood, and so they had a few moto-cops scattered around, and one tagged me on my way home from work. Mea culpa, period.
 
Talk about extreme's, you're going to every negative one with your post.

You are painting with the broadest of brushes regarding so-called law enforcement group think, and use some examples of bad things that have occurred to paint the entirety of law enforcement. Think about how many cops go through their day with relatively nothing going on, in every jurisdiction around the country......state, county, city, town. The bad things that do happen shouldn't, and they should be addressed appropriately when they do.

What you are engaging in above could equally be attested to as "anti-law enforcement group think", but I won't call it that.

That's not the line of a public servant; in 'public service', it should be: "We're here to help if you need us, even if you think you won't."

Yes I can use that line. Doesn't mean I won't help when called upon. But if someone doesn't think they ever need something, then my humble suggestion as a fellow citizen and taxpayer, is go ahead and handle things on your own. Just because Im a public servant, doesn't make me your punching bag. Take some responsibility for your own life if that's how you really feel about public servants.......don't use them then. Simple as that.
 
Talk about extreme's, you're going to every negative one with your post.

I'm not sure that's a fair assessment... in fact, I'd go so far as to say it's a gross exaggeration! I'm about as un-extreme as you can get, in most cases. I tend to be far more skeptical of claims of law enforcement abuse than not, and I'm often found bemoaning the fact that every disagreement becomes extreme-versus-extreme, with no willingness to find common ground.

I am a grossly law-abiding citizen (I'm often compared to "hank hill" from the animated series King of the HIll), who feels as though he's lost in a system where everyone cheats as much as they can get away with, and everyone has done 'something' wrong enough to be arrested under some law somewhere. I try my best to see things from many perspectives, and do not believe in moral absolutism... and I'm trying to present a handfull of the negatives about the current environment of law in the country. I could write a whole book and it wouldn't be enough to touch on a tenth of the salient points to be made...

You are painting with the broadest of brushes regarding so-called law enforcement group think, and use some examples of bad things that have occurred to paint the entirety of law enforcement. Think about how many cops go through their day with relatively nothing going on, in every jurisdiction around the country......state, county, city, town. The bad things that do happen shouldn't, and they should be addressed appropriately when they do.

Incorrect; I am absolutely not painting the entirety of law enforcement in any shade. I am suggesting that there are some problems of perception endemic to the institution of law enforcement, especially in today's climate, and trying to illustrate why the gap of perception is widening between the LE community and the citizens who are unhappy with what they view as overreaching authority.

The same problems of perception exist in any group of people; law enforcement is the subject here, however, and thus why I'm bringing it up.

What you are engaging in above could equally be attested to as "anti-law enforcement group think", but I won't call it that.

Probably for the best, as I'm not anti law-enforcement.

Yes I can use that line. Doesn't mean I won't help when called upon. But if someone doesn't think they ever need something, then my humble suggestion as a fellow citizen and taxpayer, is go ahead and handle things on your own.

I think most people should be prepared to handle what comes their way on their own, or deal with the consequences. The police do not exist to directly prevent crime, but to enforce the law. When the former occurs as a result of the latter, it's a nice bonus... but it's not a reasonable expectation that if someone breaks into your house and robs you at gunpoint that police will come out of your cupboard to help. People are, in the end, accountable for their own safety--that's an immutable methodological constraint in the context of a society free to do as it pleases.

Just because Im a public servant, doesn't make me your punching bag. Take some responsibility for your own life if that's how you really feel about public servants.......don't use them then. Simple as that.

It's not simple, and it's certainly not that simple. A citizen who cares about her country and society will speak out to try and shape it. That doesn't mean she doesn't love it, and it doesn't mean she doesn't respect those who disagree, and it certainly doesn't mean she herself should be given up on.

I don't think anyone here is using law enforcement as their punching bag... I'm certainly not; if you think that I am, I strongly suggest that you take a step back and try to look at the situation objectively.

Just one fox's opinion, anyway. ^.^

-Fox
 
I am looking at the whole situation objectively and have been; just take a look at my posts here. Im as critical of law enforcement as the next guy, but don't paint them as the bad guy anymore than I paint citizenry as bad people. Sure, there are bad apples in every group. I can only do my job to the best of my ability.

The perception you cite largely depends on who one talks to and oftentimes what their agenda is: That's true whether talking to the public and their view on law enforcement; or talking to law enforcement and their view on the public they serve. You will get every extreme on both sides, and everything inbetween. So while I fully agree that the perceptions you cite are there; all around, the size of the gap you refer to, I believe, is very dependant from person to person.
 
There were two things I forgot to add.

First: MikeD--I have nothing but respect for you, even where we may disagree. If you think anything I say is personal in any way, I'd urge you to keep that in mind, and assume that the failure is in my wording. To respond to your points, if I had no respect for you, would in my view be mere grandstanding and I don't do that. I also have a great deal of respect, overall, for law enforcement ... except when such respect is commanded by force. That may just be a southern thing, not sure.

Second: If a random citizen walks up to a line of seated protestors engaged in non-violent protest and starts dousing their faces with pepper spray, I would assume law enforcement in the vicinity would promptly arrest that citizen. I do not see why a law enforcement officer engaging in the same activity does not receive the same treatment from surrounding officers, but the fact is that they don't. In fact, more often than not, the most that the law enforcement community will say against them is silence; oftentimes they're directly supported by their departments and fellows ... as in the UC Davis case.

-Fox
 
There were two things I forgot to add.

First: MikeD--I have nothing but respect for you, even where we may disagree. If you think anything I say is personal in any way, I'd urge you to keep that in mind, and assume that the failure is in my wording. To respond to your points, if I had no respect for you, would in my view be mere grandstanding and I don't do that. I also have a great deal of respect, overall, for law enforcement ... except when such respect is commanded by force. That may just be a southern thing, not sure.

The respect is fully two-way, just so we're on the same page. The conversation is good here. Yeah there appears to be points here and there where we're questioning each other's motives and meanings, but I believe thats simply due to the limitations of written text versus in-person conversation.

Second: If a random citizen walks up to a line of seated protestors engaged in non-violent protest and starts dousing their faces with pepper spray, I would assume law enforcement in the vicinity would promptly arrest that citizen. I do not see why a law enforcement officer engaging in the same activity does not receive the same treatment from surrounding officers, but the fact is that they don't. In fact, more often than not, the most that the law enforcement community will say against them is silence; oftentimes they're directly supported by their departments and fellows ... as in the UC Davis case.
-Fox

I don't know the full facts of that case. Though from what Ive heard, there was a warning given to leave, it went unheeded, the protestors were blocking incoming police who were attempting to make arrests, etc. What disconnect happened from there to the time of the pepper spray is unknown to me. Remember, we can't judge an entire situation by simply one photo or a 15 second bit of tape on the news......can't rightfully judge it one way or the other. Why the protestors weren't dragged away, I don't know. I would like to know, but as I said, I don't know the whole facts of the situation. It appears that the situation wasn't in extremis, so what called for the pepper spray, I can't say with any factual authority.
 
I am looking at the whole situation objectively and have been; just take a look at my posts here. Im as critical of law enforcement as the next guy, but don't paint them as the bad guy anymore than I paint citizenry as bad people. Sure, there are bad apples in every group. I can only do my job to the best of my ability.

Of course; nobody is impugning your professionalism or even your the honor of your profession. (I'm not sure exactly what it is, I must hasten to add.)

The perception you cite largely depends on who one talks to and oftentimes what their agenda is: That's true whether talking to the public and their view on law enforcement; or talking to law enforcement and their view on the public they serve.

Absolutely, and that's essentially one of the main points I was trying to make.

You will get every extreme on both sides, and everything inbetween. So while I fully agree that the perceptions you cite are there; all around, the size of the gap you refer to, I believe, is very dependant from person to person.

It does, but keep in mind that in general the system views law enforcement as inherently unbiased, if not infallible; to bring things back to the subject at hand, given the inherent biases that we're talking about here, why do you find it unlikely that the OP's story is exactly as described?

-Fox
 
I don't know folks. If I had a problem with ICE or CBP and there was someone onboard that would engage me in professional dialogue, I think I'd do all I could do to learn about what allegedly happened and leave the "Turk 182/Fight the Power" for another time.

We had a really nice guy from the TSA who would post on the forum, but after say, 10Gb of "The TSA looked at my skinny jeans" posts, the opportunity was lost when he just decided to lurk and forgo the witch hunt.
 
I agree with mike you can't judge the situation by a photo or sound byte, you need to be there. In similar situations I have seen the people protesting are warned several times to disperse, then they are warned again they they will be tear gassed, sprayed, etc. They are given ample warning and chose to remain. If they just chose to walk away nothing would have happened. Police I have seen go the extra mile in these cases to avoid a problem but some just insist on making the police react. It seems to me peper spray or gas would be less hazardous to both than trying to cuff and drag people out.
 
Mike, you sound like an incredibly level-headed, patient, fair, respectful public servant with excellent decision-making skills who makes use of appropriate discretion and understands the importance of avoiding even the appearance of improprietry.

But I agree with Fox. I've had similar bad experiences and it has left a sour taste in my mouth. If all LEOs were like you we would have no problems. A few truly bad cops, and IMO more importantly the somewhat larger number who are basically good cops but follow the "blue code of silence", have created a growing problem of adversarial perceptions. Stupid laws that prevent accountability by banning video or audio recording of police officers aren't helping.

I'm a big fan of Robert Peel's principles. Police are (or should be) civilians and citizens. The blurring of the line into the military us-vs-them mindset needs to be headed off.
 
It does, but keep in mind that in general the system views law enforcement as inherently unbiased, if not infallible; to bring things back to the subject at hand, given the inherent biases that we're talking about here, why do you find it unlikely that the OP's story is exactly as described?

-Fox

Id never heard the questions asked as they don't pertain to anything related to the ramp check; so exactly as described, word for word, is hard to imagine. But to be fair, even the OP said he might not be getting it's exactly correct in detail; but the overall situation he stands by. Fair enough. Since they seemed overly interested in the business partner and/or the aircraft, I figure thats where he should be concerned.

But I agree with Fox. I've had similar bad experiences and it has left a sour taste in my mouth. If all LEOs were like you we would have no problems. A few truly bad cops, and IMO more importantly the somewhat larger number who are basically good cops but follow the "blue code of silence", have created a growing problem of adversarial perceptions. Stupid laws that prevent accountability by banning video or audio recording of police officers aren't helping.

I'm a big fan of Robert Peel's principles. Police are (or should be) civilians and citizens. The blurring of the line into the military us-vs-them mindset needs to be headed off.

Like anything and anywhere, you are going to find bad apples. The best that can be done, if they're not identified early prior to being hired, is to correct or weed them out during employment before something goes wrong. Unfortunately, the truth is that sometimes the bad apples aren't noticed or caught until after something occurs. It sucks, but its the truth of the matter.
 
I've been around for a lot of years and a lot of miles. Never, ever had a bad experience with a police officer. I don't recall ever hearing any first hand accounts of any either, at least not one that I couldn't attribute at least partially to the citizen involved.

That's my experience exactly. I'd go even further, relating experiences where FBI and State Police investigators have stuck their necks out a bit to help me with my work, just to do the right thing. All MikeDs. Only when I lived in the deep South, some years ago, did I encounter traffic stops that were less than professional.

On the other hand, the retired Sherriff in my county is a personal friend of mine. He is critical of management and police unions for not proactively dealing with officer abuse before it ends up on the 6 o'clock news cameras or YouTube, showing officers taking their frustrations out on citizens. He feels that covering up abuse leads to more, which eventually ends up in Court, the publicity of which tars the entire department and causes a loss of community support. He claims that officer personalities change as stress levels go up, and he advocates continuing psyche screening throughout employment, not just during the new hire process.

So although most of my own experiences with LEOs have been great, we've witnessed too many horrific scenes where I live for me to dismiss all complainants as cranks. Staggering jury damage award$ & settlement$ to victims, with the officer-involveds being allowed to remain on the Force to avoid Union problems. So I struggle with the contradiction between the professional way that I've been treated, and the less than professional way I see some other citizens around me being treated. And I struggle with the growing Police State.

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Like anything and anywhere, you are going to find bad apples. The best that can be done, if they're not identified early prior to being hired, is to correct or weed them out during employment before something goes wrong. Unfortunately, the truth is that sometimes the bad apples aren't noticed or caught until after something occurs. It sucks, but its the truth of the matter.

I think a big problem is that the bad apples aren't always weeded out even after something occurs. It's probably much less of an issue at the federal level, but in state and local departments there's a culture of protectionism, where fellow officers are inclined to close ranks behind one of the bad apples rather than reporting their misconduct. Outright theft by an officer would get reported, but use of a little excessive force or intimidation, maybe a search of questionable legality, mild tampering of evidence to solidify the case against a known criminal - the vast majority of LEOs would never do those things but many of them would let it slide if one of their colleagues did so, lest they themselves be ostracised. And it's that grey-area complicity that perpetuates the problem.

http://liarsesquires.com/flagstaff/Exhibits/testilying.html
http://ethicsinstitute.com/pdf/Measurement of Police Integrity.pdf
 
I think a big problem is that the bad apples aren't always weeded out even after something occurs. It's probably much less of an issue at the federal level, but in state and local departments there's a culture of protectionism, where fellow officers are inclined to close ranks behind one of the bad apples rather than reporting their misconduct. Outright theft by an officer would get reported, but use of a little excessive force or intimidation, maybe a search of questionable legality, mild tampering of evidence to solidify the case against a known criminal - the vast majority of LEOs would never do those things but many of them would let it slide if one of their colleagues did so, lest they themselves be ostracised. And it's that grey-area complicity that perpetuates the problem.

http://liarsesquires.com/flagstaff/Exhibits/testilying.html
http://ethicsinstitute.com/pdf/Measurement of Police Integrity.pdf

Oh hell, we do that in aviation all the darned time.

How many times have we chatted about "bad apples" in our respective aviation circles but didn't do anything about it?
 
Very good point! But the effects aren't (usually) so severe. If a pilot is a significant danger to others (and I'm not talking about that guy who busts the occasional cloud layer without a clearance) then something usually is done about it. Because of the chilling effect that misconduct can have on society, police must be held to a higher standard. I'm not saying it's easy! But some other countries (anecdotally, Sweden and Germany) seem to be in a better situation, so it's not impossible either.
 
Even Martha and John King have been held up by Law Enforcement... At gunpoint! Their Cessna carried the same tail number as a previously stolen aircraft.

(Thanks for moving this thread back to General Section from the Lav.)

I know from PM activity that some of us would like to better understand the organizational structure, connections and procedures being used by ICE, Customs and Border Patrol, Air Interdiction, and the FAA in order to avoid the John and Martha King situation, as well as whatever may have happened in Canassis's experience. In the King situation, it appears that the LEOs were merely acting in-good-faith on bad/incomplete information provided them by EPIC (El Paso Intelligence Center), and were laboring under some type of procedural breakdown within their system. Similarly, In Canassis's situation, his recollections of ICE procedures doesn't fit yet with what very little I know of the procedures these agencies would follow. So I'm still as confused as John King, Canassis, and AOPA's President Fuller are. There is probably a perfectly good explanation for all of this, but we don't seem to have all the information.
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AOPA President Comments on arrest/detainment of John & Martha King


John King comments on his unsettling experience at gunpoint (video)
http://www.aopa.org/aopalive/?watch=lta2xvMTqhNvolmRnuzWWf1vgW9i79PS

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