Mid-Air in SFO Bay Area...

Inverted said:
How are bay tours dangerous? When was the last incident or accident that resulted from a bay tour. Pilots are taught to be scared of bravo by scared instructors, and it drives me nuts.
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Yep. Granted, when I do them on a nice day at a normal hour, there can be 4-6 aircraft buzzing around downtown SF and NorCal isn't really issuing traffic alerts. But that's what situational awareness is all about. As far as the Bravo transition being dangerous? Nope. I just don't get pilots being afraid to talk to ATC at busy airports. Its funny that everytime I would ask a CFI about a Bay Tour as a student pilot, they would start describing the "back door" from HAF up the coast where you don't have to talk to SFO. They always had an aghast reaction when I'd say "Um, why wouldn't I just call SFO tower?". I used to think it was funny, now it pisses me off. If you're teaching in a busy area with Bravo like LA, SF, or NYC, your students NEED to know how to talk on the radio, and not be afraid of the local airspace and controllers. That's how I feel, anyway./rant
 
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ChasenSFO said:
Yep. Granted, when I do them on a nice day at a normal hour, there can be 4-6 aircraft buzzing around downtown SF and NorCal isn't really issuing traffic alerts. But that's what situational awareness is all about. As far as the Bravo transition being dangerous? Nope. I just don't get pilots being afraid to talk to ATC at busy airports. Its funny that everytime I would ask a CFI about a Bay Tour as a student pilot, they would start describing the "back door" from HAF up the coast where you don't have to talk to SFO. They always had an aghast reaction when I'd say "Um, why wouldn't I just call SFO tower?". I used to think it was funny, now it pisses me off. If you're teaching in a busy area with Bravo like LA, SF, or NYC, your students NEED to know how to talk on the radio, and not be afraid of the local airspace and controllers. That's how I feel, anyway./rant
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Interesting point. My instructor never really taught me how to get flight following. So the other day I finally built up the "confidence" to talk to Phoenix Approach. HA!

Now i'm just sitting here thinking what the hell was I afraid of the whole time? I found approach/departure/center extremely helpful and patient way beyond what I thought they were going to be like with some pea shooter diamond 20. My instructors have also been very anti Bravo as well.

+1 to you Chasen
 
RIP always hard to see but very sobering. Taken by a family member post fishing trip:

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http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20140427X21627&key=1
The Sea Fury pilot stated that he concentrated on flying his airplane, and initiated a climb, and conducted a controllability check to determine that he could control the airplane in the current configuration. He wanted to avoid populated areas, so he continued toward his home airport. While en route he contacted company personnel, who decided to fly another company airplane to meet and examine the Sea Fury's condition. The Sea Fury pilot lowered the landing gear, and did a controllability check to include turns. He lowered the flaps, and repeated the testing. He reduced airspeed to a landing compatible speed of 130 mph, and checked controllability again. Determining that he had adequate control to land, he made a full stop landing at his home airport.
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Roger Roger said:
But did he call seggy and ask what the safest course of action was?
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Notice how I haven't posted in this thread? That is because I know there might be more to this that I don't have experience in dealing with so I am listening to others speak. Good advice for those who like to use the argument 'it is Alaska! It is different!' After all, where is Delta going to park in Juno?
 
Seggy said:
Notice how I haven't posted in this thread? That is because I know there might be more to this that I don't have experience in dealing with so I am listening to others speak. Good advice for those who like to use the argument 'it is Alaska! It is different!' After all, where is Delta going to park in Juno?
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Wait what? After you tried to tell all the guys flying 135 in Alaska that flying 135 there was exactly the same as Colgan, you're trying to say that WE were the ones who didn't know what we were talking about and should be quiet? I think that rarified air in that 737 cockpit has cooked your brain. You spent that whole thread trying to turn legitimate questions into evidence that we were either stupid, dangerous, or just egotistical because that's what you wanted to believe.
 
Roger Roger said:
Wait what? After you tried to tell all the guys flying 135 in Alaska that flying 135 there was exactly the same as Colgan, you're trying to say that WE were the ones who didn't know what we were talking about and should be quiet? I think that rarified air in that 737 cockpit has cooked your brain. You spent that whole thread trying to turn legitimate questions into evidence that we were either stupid, dangerous, or just egotistical because that's what you wanted to believe.
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Some of you are ragging on a guy who left a company that has had a horrific safety record and was trying to speak about his experiences. Some of you try to diminish outsiders because it is not Alaska. After all, 'where is Delta going to park in Juno'? Other folks operate in very challenging environments outside of Juno, Dutch Harbor, and whatever else is up there. Some of the Alaska guys seem to forget that.

Regardless of that, R.I.P. to the individual.
 
Seggy said:
Some of you are ragging on a guy who left a company that has had a horrific safety record and was trying to speak about his experiences.
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I think if you look you'll find that that one guy was ragging on him. I mostly kept my mouth shut because everything I knew was hearsay and I didn't want to bad mouth pilots and an operation based on that.
Some of you try to diminish outsiders because it is not Alaska.
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Which is exactly the same thing you do when a non 121 guy makes a comment about that idiot crew in the 777 in SFO, or captain Faily McCheckride in buffalo, or the fools who melted two engines "410'ing it!". Sometimes practical experience means something.
 
Sorry but respectfully to Seggy and Roger Roger. Could you please keep this on topic? I have no idea what you guys were saying. But it was confusing. So yeah beer and also I thought I would mention. You guys are taking it to the level of a couple that argues in public.

IMO
 
Roger Roger said:
Which is exactly the same thing you do when a non 121 guy makes a comment about that idiot crew in the 777 in SFO, or captain Faily McCheckride in buffalo, or the fools who melted two engines "410'ing it!". Sometimes practical experience means something.
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Best description of recent events I have seen yet!!! Haha
 
What do you want to bet that the Hawker pilot's memory of events would be substantially different if there weren't TWO uninjured?
 
Boris Badenov said:
What do you want to bet that the Hawker pilot's memory of events would be substantially different if there weren't TWO uninjured?
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How so?

The person riding in the back of the Sea Fury was the pilot's wife. If he had some need to fudge the details, it wouldn't exactly be difficult for her to confirm the story.
 
Well, I mean, it certainly reads to me like he pretty much ploughed in to the guy. Short of "he jumped right in front of me!", I have a hard time seeing anything else that fits.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Well, I mean, it certainly reads to me like he pretty much ploughed in to the guy. Short of "he jumped right in front of me!", I have a hard time seeing anything else that fits.
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How does one "plough in to" another aircraft when the only points of damage are the horizontal stab/elevator on the side of the other aircraft and the vertical stab/rudder, both of which are located at the aft end of the aircraft? Especially when there is a 13-foot prop and 19 feet of wing on that side, both located in front of that stab, that didn't have any evidence of impact?

The only way this collision could have occurred as described in the NTSB brief was if the Cessna pilot made a control input after the Sea Fury had all ready passed in front of his 3/9 line -- a control input which maneuvered the Cessna into the Sea Fury and causing the collision. The other possibility would be that the Sea Fury could have passed the 3/9 line, and then made an abrupt right turn and run into the Cessna such that the Cessna pilot could not maneuver fast enough to stay clear. This would be HIGHLY improbable, as abrupt maneuvering like that goes against just about every rule of formation flying known, and Korey Wells (the Sea Fury pilot) is a highly experienced civilian formation pilot.

The widely circulated unofficial story (that is not part of the NTSB summary, natch) is that the pilot of the Cessna said, "let me get my camera" over the radio in the seconds before the collision.

Without knowing the exact timing of events, and where that comment fits into the sequence of events, it is impossible to know, but...(warning: speculation) seems to me that a pilot reaching for a camera while flying as wing in close formation risks not paying attention to maintaining position and running into the lead aircraft. In close formation flying (in the USAF, that means 3 feet of separation between the aircraft), literally a second or two of inattention is enough to cause a collision.

Is it possible that the Sea Fury pilot abruptly maneuvered while out in front of the Cessna, and causing the collision? Possible, yes...but IMHO not very probable.
 
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