Mid Air Collision Over Wisconsin, All Survive

Having ~1000 hours formation in he chase position, it's best to get training and have a solid plan for unplanned events. That being said once you get the hang of it, it's not terribly hard.


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Boris Badenov said:
Sometimes. Sometimes more like 150ft...certainly never closer than that. I shouldn't even say I "do"...haven't done it for years. But the guy that taught me to do it used to be one of the Red Baron Pizza guys, and while I know that's not very tacticool, he didn't seem to think it was exactly rocket surgery or that we were like taking our lives in our hands by, you know, talking about it and then doing it. *shrug*.
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I understand. And really, I'm not being "judgy."

Cold hard facts - if you do real formation enough something will eventually go wrong. If not trained and practiced, there's a decent probability people will die.

And completely agreed, flying straight and level in formation is NOT difficult.

Being trained by an experienced formation flyer (Red Baron guy) is quite valuable, in my opinion.
 
scooter2525 said:
Having ~1000 hours formation in he chase position, it's best to get training and have a solid plan for unplanned events. That being said once you get the hang of it, it's not terribly hard.


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Agreed, but unless you have a military fighter background that I'm not aware of, what on earth are you doing to be flying that much formation? Good on you!
 
scooter2525 said:
Having ~1000 hours formation in he chase position, it's best to get training and have a solid plan for unplanned events. That being said once you get the hang of it, it's not terribly hard.


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Erm, not much is difficult after training and experience.

Difficult is the wrong word.
 
The Fez said:
I really don't mean to single you out, but the above is a good example of what @Hacker15e and @bunk22 are talking about. There is so much more prior planning and training that needs to occur before stepping to the aircraft. You say keep your eyes on lead all the time, no exceptions. Well, that's not always the best choice. If you're flying "fingertip" formation, where you're tucked in close to lead, you can and should be spending most of your time looking at him. If you're a bit more spread out in route or cruise formation, you need to be clearing your own flight path.

Losing visual with lead is another dangerous situation that needs a very well developed plan and procedure to affect a safe breakaway and, if necessary, a rejoin. If you're 2 in a formation of 4 and you lose sight of lead, are you going to peel off aggressively to get separation or are you going to reduce power, turn away from lead's last known position by X degrees, begin a climb to a safe block altitude, radio lead to inform him of your situation.....?

There is a lot that needs to be thoroughly understood by every pilot in the formation well before we light the fires.
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Simple case of not really knowing any better at the time.

Realistically, perhaps the sanctioning bodies should make formation flight require some formal training.
 
canadian_atc said:
Realistically, perhaps the sanctioning bodies should make formation flight require some formal training.
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Has there been some sort of explosion in the numbers of formation flying accidents? Does anyone even have any idea of how many hours of formation flight occur vs. the number of accidents? I take a casual glance at the NTSB reports at the end of the month, most months, and I don't recall seeing a shocking number of formation-flying disasters. This has the smell of "OMG black gunz, ban them now!" to me.
 
bunk22 said:
Agreed..not sure how long you've been in but if you know Cat Box (former S-3 driver), he had a midair during a B & R during a div form, clear day, easy as it comes. It happened in mid 90's, he was a solo dash 2 and as solo dash 3 came screaming in, he went acute, wings level to extremely sucked, wrapped it up....lead called for an underrun and though he attempted, his canopy hit Cat Box's tail. Dash 3 was killed instantly, Cat Box ejected.
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As you can see from my other reply, I was trying to figure out how the hell I could have missed or forgotten a Hoover mid-air. Thankfully, my memory hasn't failed me. Unfortunately, I'm still old.

This was a T-2 or T-45 midair, right? Was he an IP or SNA at that time? I graduated from college in '86 (NROTC).
 
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I'd be far more concerned about jump pilots not knowing the pitfalls of that operation rather than that of formation flying. I have far more "eek" stories from when I was starting out as a jump pilot than when I flew formation (which by the way is 0 scary moments in form).

I agree that formal formation training would be beneficial if you are going to be doing that kind of flying, but the basics are not that hard.

I think it's much more important for DZs to formally train new jump pilots. Not saying these two weren't by the way.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Has there been some sort of explosion in the numbers of formation flying accidents? Does anyone even have any idea of how many hours of formation flight occur vs. the number of accidents? I take a casual glance at the NTSB reports at the end of the month, most months, and I don't recall seeing a shocking number of formation-flying disasters. This has the smell of "OMG black gunz, ban them now!" to me.
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I actually kind of think this topic is very much like this FOI graphic.

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Off topic: Don't you love how well dressed they are? Plus, only the male student is thinking of the right thing.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Yeah I guess I don't know what "formation" means, either. No, I've never maneuvered in formation. Yes it was all flying in the same direction. No, I don't think I could fly formation like highly trained super studs fly formation. No, I don't think I said I could. No, sorry, flying in the same direction as another guy less than a mile apart without hitting each other is not really all that hard. Yes, I will do as I like, because yes it's RIGHT THERE IN THE FAR/AIM that all that is required for formation flight is prior arrangement between PICs. I swear to God everyone thinks everything they do in life is curing freaking cancer.
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Then you're not flying form, you are flying within visual range of an aircraft (regardless of the FAA definition). Form flying is not that difficult, baby form anyway. This is form flying:



 
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