Mid Air Collision Over Wisconsin, All Survive

^^ Formation is pretty awesome. Doing it low level while maneuvering...well as Waco used to say...gives me action in the pants.
 
As an instructor who teaches formation and as a guy who has flown hundreds upon hundreds of formation, I agree with Hacker, Bunk, and well, even though not relevant, Fez.

I'd also guess most who have flown "un-official" formation have more likely flown in the same general direction as other planes rather than flown true formation.

Do what you want to, but I'll end with this:

The pros get professional training.

The pros practice routinely.

The pros practice contingencies and emergencies routinely.

The pros conduct a detailed briefing prior to formation flight.

The pros get evaluated on a reoccurring basis on this task.

Even the pros screw this task up from time to time.
 
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bunk22 said:
That's an excellent survival plan.

A few years back, a group of T-34C's were flying down to Key West, 7 or so total. At some point, the IP's had the idea to join up in a diamond formation. Now all this IP's were trained to fly form, basic form. I have no idea what their background was, most likely helo or P-3 guys. Doesn't mean they can't fly form, as a primary IP, if you are form qualified, you will fly lots of form.

Anyway, the IP in aircraft on the bottom of the diamond want to get a good pic from beneath, so she transferred controls to the student. I don't know if he had completed forms but he drifted up into the leads prop which tore into the rear cockpit, killing the IP instantly, cutting the plane in half, the student crashing to his death. Ridiculous from so many aspects but poor planning, diamond flying is not part of primary form flying, etc, etc.
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I can't watch the Blues fly without focusing on the slot. After watching the Blues for almost 50 years, it still makes me nervous.

On a side note, I'm pleased to see @bunk22 post after not seeing any posts after the VT mishap.
 
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Ian J said:
I'd also guess most who have flown "un-official" formation have more likely flown in the same general direction as other planes rather than flown true formation.
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Yeah, that's the trap. Folks get some confidence after joining up while flying straight and level on a perfect day.
 
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Pilot Fighter said:
Yeah, that's the trap. Folks get some confidence after joining up while flying straight and level on a perfect day.
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Funny, I don't remember saying that of what you quoted me on.... . .
 
Pilot Fighter said:
I can't watch the Blues fly without focusing on the slot. After watching the Blues for almost 50 years, it still makes me nervous.

On a side note, I'm pleased to see @bunk22 post after not seeing any posts after the VT mishap.
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I'm not sure what you're saying, about the VT mishap?
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Yeah, that's the trap. Folks get some confidence after joining up while flying straight and level on a perfect day.
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Agreed..not sure how long you've been in but if you know Cat Box (former S-3 driver), he had a midair during a B & R during a div form, clear day, easy as it comes. It happened in mid 90's, he was a solo dash 2 and as solo dash 3 came screaming in, he went acute, wings level to extremely sucked, wrapped it up....lead called for an underrun and though he attempted, his canopy hit Cat Box's tail. Dash 3 was killed instantly, Cat Box ejected.
 
bunk22 said:
he went acute, wings level to extremely sucked, wrapped it up....lead called for an underrun and though he attempted, his canopy hit Cat Box's tail. Dash 3 was killed instantly, Cat Box ejected.
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Yow, all this Navy-speak...I've been flying/teaching formation for 18 years, and I can hardly even understand what you're saying!

hehe
 
Hacker15e said:
Yow, all this Navy-speak...I've been flying/teaching formation for 18 years, and I can hardly even understand what you're saying!

hehe
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Yeah, I just skipped over his post. The Navy is the worst with the service specific speak!
 
bunk22 said:
Agreed..not sure how long you've been in but if you know Cat Box (former S-3 driver), he had a midair during a B & R during a div form, clear day, easy as it comes. It happened in mid 90's, he was a solo dash 2 and as solo dash 3 came screaming in, he went acute, wings level to extremely sucked, wrapped it up....lead called for an underrun and though he attempted, his canopy hit Cat Box's tail. Dash 3 was killed instantly, Cat Box ejected.
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I went TDRL around '95, but the only losses I recall from the mid-90's were the VS-24 (disorientation following night cat) and VS-22 (flew into the water). Are you sure about the time-frame, could it have been much later or VRC or VQ?
 
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Yeah I guess I don't know what "formation" means, either. No, I've never maneuvered in formation. Yes it was all flying in the same direction. No, I don't think I could fly formation like highly trained super studs fly formation. No, I don't think I said I could. No, sorry, flying in the same direction as another guy less than a mile apart without hitting each other is not really all that hard. Yes, I will do as I like, because yes it's RIGHT THERE IN THE FAR/AIM that all that is required for formation flight is prior arrangement between PICs. I swear to God everyone thinks everything they do in life is curing freaking cancer.
 
Yo, B - in my post I was just looking out for guys. When someone reads "formation" do they read it like you do, or like I do? I don't know. I fly formation at 150ft from each aircraft. I'm guessing you're like half a mile?
 
Ian J said:
I fly formation at 150ft from each aircraft. I'm guessing you're like half a mile?
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Sometimes. Sometimes more like 150ft...certainly never closer than that. I shouldn't even say I "do"...haven't done it for years. But the guy that taught me to do it used to be one of the Red Baron Pizza guys, and while I know that's not very tacticool, he didn't seem to think it was exactly rocket surgery or that we were like taking our lives in our hands by, you know, talking about it and then doing it. *shrug*.
 
Technically, "standard formation" according to ATC is two (or more) aircraft within one mile laterally and 100 feet vertically.
 
I understood what bunk was saying. Much more than I could say for a flight on the wing of an F-15C a couple years back. "Hook left"..........nothing....."Hook left"..........nothing......"HOOK LEFT"......hmmmm I guess he wants to go left maybe........no idea how far but we'll find out I guess........AF jargon rustles my jimmies

As for admin form mishaps, agreed, that's when dumb stuff happens. That said, normally it is just an embarrassing sarcastic "you have the lead on the right dude" as you blow by with the boards out, full cross controls in, throttles idle, with 100 kts of closure, but the complacency bred post-KIO with the fence out call following 20-30 mins of tactical maneuvering, is certainly real.
 
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