mesaba pilots have tentative deal..

[kellwolf]

Are you talking about compass with the lone Crj-200 cause i know that already happened.. or was someone else doing proving runs?

Yeah Compass and how do you know it already happened? If it did, why aren't they flying and generating revenue?

Oh, and SUPPOSEDLY Mesaba didn't have enough cash to finish out Oct. At least, that's what they said earlier in the month......

 

[higney85]

As I recalled from a press release the announcement on the 72 new jets was after the proving runs b/c they could not get the approval from the banks until compass was officially "up". As I understand a lone CRJ-200 (i believe one from the 15 mesaba was supposed to get) is being used to keep the cert active. As far as mesaba... I dont wanna go there. I heard through the grapevine that the pilots took something like 15% pay cuts (mgmt was wanting 17ish%) and the reason they signed is b/c of deals for future growth/more pay. In my eyes it looks like a bait and switch and a selfish act that can have major consequences to the other regionals and unions... All NW wants now is PNCL and mesaba to go head to head for the bait of the 900's... But that contains alot of personal opinion and angst. time will tell!

 

[OldTownPilot]

But of Mesabas contract has these "snapbacks" that would bring their pay back up to PCL's level, wouldn' it make sense to give the 900 to PCL? NW keeps the saab flying for redicously cheap, because the 900s wil be paid at the same either place. and if the 900s are at Mesaba the Saabs cost more?

 

[GaTechKid]

As far as mesaba... I dont wanna go there. I heard through the grapevine that the pilots took something like 15% pay cuts (mgmt was wanting 17ish%) and the reason they signed is b/c of deals for future growth/more pay.

Aren't you a Pinnacle new-hire? As of right now, the only leverage that a union has (i.e. power to strike) was taken away by a judge so 15% negotiated is better than 17% imposed. However, none of us know what exactly the TA contains...

 

[higney85]

Aren't you a Pinnacle new-hire? As of right now, the only leverage that a union has (i.e. power to strike) was taken away by a judge so 15% negotiated is better than 17% imposed. However, none of us know what exactly the TA contains...

Yes I am, but while the 15% negotiated may be better now than the other 2% that would have been imposed the fact still remains that they gave up 15%. As each regional deals with RFP's it comes down to a bottom dollar. By mesaba giving up the 15% what makes other carriers not try to slash their pay, or more-likely use the new payrates of mesaba as comparison rates to other carriers. Case-in-point: Mesaba and Pinnacle can be known as the "stepchildren" to NWA and there were pncl pilots shoulder to shoulder with mesaba guys/gals in support of them, but when mgmt gets together for a pilot contract with pncl the tables dont deal with the same comrodary as pilots- it becomes a "our competitor gets paid XX$ and does the same job"- why should pncl pilots get a raise? On an industry whole pncl and mesaba guys make squat- (I'm not here for the money!) but why sell the pilot group (overall) short. The only way to keep such a specialized /unionized industry as good as it was (and may be again) is to stand up to mgmt. They didnt. While the TA will be interesting to see- and I may be totally out of line, the first indications dont show a firm backbone on the regional level against mgmt's goal to make this once specialized industry a low pay industry. Ok, off the soapbox for me- please flame lightly..

 

[higney85]

But of Mesabas contract has these "snapbacks" that would bring their pay back up to PCL's level, wouldn' it make sense to give the 900 to PCL? NW keeps the saab flying for redicously cheap, because the 900s wil be paid at the same either place. and if the 900s are at Mesaba the Saabs cost more?

The issue here is mesaba guys can fly them cheaper b/c pncl wants scope (I agree here). Why fly a plane almost twice as big for the same price per hour? I do hope pncl gets the 900's and think it will happen, it just may not pay as well for pncl folks b/c mesaba can bid very low due to labor.


This entire thread revolves around pure speculation- i dont wish to start an argument b/c there is no right or wrong and no point in bitterness. I just hope a ripple doesnt get sent amongst the management teams of other regionals and make these "snapback" contracts commonplace. I do not claim to know all nor do I claim to have any experience with these politics, I am just speaking from the bottom of the totem pole on first hand OPINION.

 

[GaTechKid]

Yes I am, but while the 15% negotiated may be better now than the other 2% that would have been imposed the fact still remains that they gave up 15%. As each regional deals with RFP's it comes down to a bottom dollar. By mesaba giving up the 15% what makes other carriers not try to slash their pay, or more-likely use the new payrates of mesaba as comparison rates to other carriers.

The pilots at Mesaba aren't giving up anything. They are getting cuts imposed on them. As much as you want them to strike, they won't because it is i-l-l-e-g-a-l.

 

[kellwolf]

As I recalled from a press release the announcement on the 72 new jets was after the proving runs b/c they could not get the approval from the banks until compass was officially "up". As I understand a lone CRJ-200 (i believe one from the 15 mesaba was supposed to get) is being used to keep the cert active.

Having an airplane on the cert and flying it are totally different. That plane isn't flying. Mesa has the Midway cert with 737s on it, too. I don't see them flying those.

As far as mesaba... I dont wanna go there. I heard through the grapevine that the pilots took something like 15% pay cuts (mgmt was wanting 17ish%) and the reason they signed is b/c of deals for future growth/more pay.

Um, they haven't signed ANYTHING. TA means TENTATIVE agreement. And it was a 5-5.5% PAY cut. Nothing has been said about the hit they're taking in benes. The 17-19% management was tossing around included cuts in pay and benefits, mostly in employee contributions to medical insurance. As of now, the MEC is still reviewing, and the pilots haven't said "yes." Jury is still out.

In my eyes it looks like a bait and switch and a selfish act that can have major consequences to the other regionals and unions... All NW wants now is PNCL and mesaba to go head to head for the bait of the 900's... But that contains alot of personal opinion and angst. time will tell!

Same thing, different year. They did the same thing with the CRJs when they first got those. Wonder why Mesaba and Pinnacle guys only get along when they're fighting NWA together? It's b/c NWA has whipsawed us against each other time and time again. I don't see it stopping anytime soon.

 

[kellwolf]

The issue here is mesaba guys can fly them cheaper b/c pncl wants scope (I agree here). Why fly a plane almost twice as big for the same price per hour? I do hope pncl gets the 900's and think it will happen, it just may not pay as well for pncl folks b/c mesaba can bid very low due to labor.

Careful, scope and getting paid for bigger planes can be a bit different. The scope we're trying to maintain is not getting whipsawed on a second certificate by our own company. Personally, I'd rather have that in the contract than large pay raises. Otherwise, you get the large pay raises and wind up taking concessions later anyway to keep the flying you used to have that was being sent to the other cert. Ask some of the Mesa/Freedom guys and TSA/GoJets guys how that works out.

he only way to keep such a specialized /unionized industry as good as it was (and may be again) is to stand up to mgmt. They didnt.

You're counting out the pilot group too early. They have yet to vote on the TA, and there are still plenty of guys out there that say "If it's less than our current contract, I'm voting 'no.'" Now, it still remains to be seen if they'll do what they say, but it's not a done deal yet. The only people that have said "Yes" to management so far is the negotiating committee. Remember, the NWA FAs voted down TWO TAs this year. The TA isn't set in stone until ratified by the rank and file. Until the, Mesaba should be bleeding cash. Apparently, management "mis-represented" themselves on their cash-strapped situation. They shoulda been out of money weeks ago according to them.....

 

[higney85]

Thanks for your input kellwolf, one of these days I am sure I will run into you. All I can say is that I hope mesaba didnt sell themselves short. Everyone will just have to wait and see. My biggest fear is not with mesaba, its with that judges ruling to ban a strike... I don't understand why a strike is illegal when unionized? Kinda takes a bite out of the point of a union! (I am a fan of unions so dont take that the wrong way)

 

[GaTechKid]

The TA is posted over at FI.

 

[kellwolf]

Thanks for your input kellwolf, one of these days I am sure I will run into you. All I can say is that I hope mesaba didnt sell themselves short. Everyone will just have to wait and see. My biggest fear is not with mesaba, its with that judges ruling to ban a strike... I don't understand why a strike is illegal when unionized? Kinda takes a bite out of the point of a union! (I am a fan of unions so dont take that the wrong way)

IMO, I blame the judge as well. I don't agree with his handling of the situation or the interrpretation of a (non-existant) law. There is no law on the books saying dealing with union contracts under the RLA in bankruptcy, so the judges are making this up as they go along.....not their jobs. Legislators make laws, judges interpret them. What we've got here are judges making things up since there's nothing to support them. What they SHOULD be doing is letting the RLA take its course. If one side gets released to self-help, the OTHER should instead of letting multiple airlines limp along and pretend to be mortally wounded. If what Mesaba presented in court months ago were true, they should be in liquidation by now. The money to finance an "orderly liquidation" was supposed to be gone on Oct 15th. Now, I don't know of too many creditors that will let a company dip into that money without a good reason. And you're right, bankruptcy pretty much puts the handcuffs on the union at this point.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

The TA is posted over at FI.

So what's the long & short of it? Is it good or bad?

 

[kellwolf]

For those that don't want to brave FI....

Amendments to 2004 Mesaba-ALPA Collective Bargaining Agreement

Wages & Duration
• 5% or 5.5% pay reduction
o 5% wage reduction to all pay rates except 60-76 seat Turbojet Captain rate
o 5.5% wage reduction to 60-76 seat Turbojet Captain rate
• 4-year duration if less than 79 aircraft
• 5.5 years if greater than 79 aircraft

Across the Board Increases and Wage Recovery
• Across the Board Increases
o DOS + 1 2.5%
o DOS + 2 2.5%
o DOS + 3 1.0%
o DOS + 4 1.5% or 3% (Duration based on fleet size)
o DOS + 5 2.0% or 3% (Duration based on fleet size)
o 1.5% Across the Board increases each year after until new Collective Bargaining Agreement(CBA) achieved

• Wage Recovery (In addition to ATB increases)
o Increases of 0.12% or 0.125% (76 seat jet) per aircraft
o Up to
DOS + 1 0.0%
DOS + 2 1.0% or 1.5% (76 seat jet)
DOS + 3 2.0%
DOS + 4 1.0%
o If we receive 36 or more additional aircraft full wage recovery would be achieved by DOS + 4

Seat Ranges
• All scales remain the same except:
o 60-69 seat Turbojet Captain Rate increased to 60-76 seat range
o Add pay scales for 19 and 20 Years of Service to 60-76 seat Turbojet Captain Rate
o 56-74 seat Turboprop rate paid at 40-59 seat Captain Turbojet Rate

Per Diem
• Frozen at $1.55 until DOS + 4
• $1.65 at DOS + 4 and thereafter

Uniform Allowance
• DOS $0.00
• DOS + 1 $0.00
• DOS + 2 $50.00
• DOS + 3 $75.00
• DOS + 4 $235.00
• $235.00 thereafter

Vacation
• All pilots with 2 or more weeks of vacation will forgo 1 week in 2007

Multi-Class Bids I & II
• One time contract relief
• Accounts for approximately 25% of our concessions

Health Insurance
• Increase premium share to 33% from 30%
• No changes to Plan 1 deductibles, co-pays, and out-of-pocket until Jan. 1, 2009
• Limits changes to deductibles, co-pay or max out-of-pocket to 5% annual increase or industry average
• Secure prescription plan in CBA
• Modify prescription drug coverage
o $10 co-pay generic
o $500 deductible for name brand
o $50 co-pay for name brand after $500 deductible met
o No coverage for name brand if generic is available
• Language more specific than current book added to CBA

Short-Term Disability
• Reduce benefits from 66.6% to 60%
Long-Term Disability and Loss of License
• Reduced benefits from 66.6% of wages to 60%
• Benefits based on years of service
o Less than 1 year of service 1 year of benefits
o 1-2 years of service 2 years of benefits
o 2-3 years of service 3 years of benefits
o 3 or more years of service benefit to age 65

Scheduling
• 1 year of CDO Deconsolidation (pre 2004 CBA rules)
o After 1 year return to CDO Consolidation
o Enhanced Integration rules
• Preferential Bidding System(PBS) after 1 year
o Improved PBS after 1 year or 60 total aircraft

Freezes
• 24-month Captain training freeze
o Returns to current book (12-month freeze) at DOS + 4
• 24-month freeze on move to equal or lower paying position
o Permanent

Voluntary Moving Expenses
• Suspend 2 weeks hotel and per diem until DOS + 4
Training Hotel Buy-Out
• Allow pilots to voluntarily receive one-half of hotel costs during Long-Term Training if they voluntarily forgo hotel during training

SAT Adjustment
• Initial one time adjustment of SAT times with activation of FMS/GPS
Miscellaneous Improvements
• Call In Honest policy improved
• Flex Spending Account Health Reimbursement increased to $6,000 annually
• Furlough Recall Rights improved

Provisions on Duration
• Open 6 months prior to amendable date
• Mediator to be utilized at either parties’ request
• 1.5% annual ATB raises each year after

Profit Sharing
• 20% of profits from 4% - 8%
• 25% of profits from 8% - 12%
• 30% of profits over 12%
• Shared with all Mesaba employees
• Paid in cash
• Suspend at Section 6 opener

Claim
• $14.2 million
• We receive the same percentage value as the Unsecured Creditors’

Committee receives
• To be paid out to the pilot group in a to-be-determined manner

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Care to tell us in laymens terms? From what I quickly ready sounds like a "turkey."

 

[kellwolf]

5% pay cut, terms last for 4 years unless they get more than 79 a/c, then it lasts for 5.

COLA increases every year, and one thing I DO like, a 1.5% increase even AFTER the amendable date.

Wage recovery raises based on fleet size (another IF). Basically, they've got snapbacks, but only if they get certain a/c.

CA's pay gets shanked, the FOs get a little bump since it's blended. Per diem is not bad (it's more than PCL's)

Uniform allowance is almost non-existant and anyone with 2 weeks or more of vacation is losing a week in 07.

Not sure what a "multi-class bid" is. Maybe one of the other guys can help out there.

Health insurance looks pretty crappy, though. For example, if I were on this insurance, I'd be paying $500 a year since I'd be hitting the deductible, then $50 a month after that since there's no generic for the medication my wife takes.

Profit sharing if the company makes 4% or better profit, and the pilots can stand in line with the creditors for 14.2 million if all this doesn't work.

For me, there's too many "if" statements in this one. They get profit sharing IF it breaks 4%. What if they creatively keep it at 3.9%? They get nice raises IF they go over 79 aircraft. What if they stop at 78? If it were me, I wouldn't trust the same management team that worked a shady bankruptcy NOT to execute every loophole they can find in the TA.

 

[GaTechKid]

They get nice raises IF they go over 79 aircraft. What if they stop at 78?

79 aircraft only applies to the length of the contract. They get .12% or .125% back for every new aircraft on the property in addition to the ATB increases listed in the TA. So if Mesaba gets 36 new jets after 4 years then their current rates are restored along with ATB increases of 7.5-9%

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Jets...I thought Mesaba was going to an all Saab fleet?

 

[Malko]

79 aircraft only applies to the length of the contract. They get .12% or .125% back for every new aircraft on the property in addition to the ATB increases listed in the TA. So if Mesaba gets 36 new jets after 4 years then their current rates are restored along with ATB increases of 7.5-9%

Jets...I thought Mesaba was going to an all Saab fleet?

That is the plan for NOW. As a matter of fact they just pulled 4 more AVRO's from the fleet. Not sure what they have left per A/C type, but I believe they are down to 55 planes.

 

[kellwolf]

Blee and I are of one mind of this one. Compass won't see the light of day, and Mesaba will get those Embraers. If Compass does actually see the light of day, Mesaba's in a good position to undercut PCL for the 900s, too. They still have one CRJ operating on the cert and one more that's been transferred over to the Compass cert that could come back. This also keeps them in the running for the 15 CRJ in the desert. IMO, I don't see those coming out of the desert since the 76 seaters are on the way.


They might be an all Saab fleet for now, but the only way to grow the airline is to get more flying. I don't think NWA is looking at more Saab routes.