Mesaba flowthrough

higney85 said:
Look, flow can be great but it's far easier for the union to say "no thanks" opposed to "PLEASE". The problem is never the flow UP, it's the possibility of DOWN and many times it's the company that won't agree to it before an MEC. As I understand things both DL and PNCL are still working on the flow and DL is pushing the DOWN aspect LESS due to planned attrition (even with no growth) due to retirements as the age 65 bubble is going away. Before anyone gets up in arms this is an active discussion that will hopefully bear fruit for all in DCI. In terms of XJ when all things are said and done they will not be a DCI carrier, yet 9E (where the jets and many pilots will go) will be the largest DCI ALPA carrier. Flow has been a goal and worked on for some time with DALPA with the goal being able to move up from DCI to DL over time. We all fly through the same hubs and network making it a transition that only makes sense- which making "sense" in airlines brings it's inherent issues.
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Honestly I wouldn't mind having the flow as a "safety net" type deal. At least I'll know as long as I flow up in 7 years, I'll eventually escape. That alone will have me looking less longingly at my razor blades in the mornings.

Speaking of these kinda things, is the whole MEC going to be in on the meeting with the company on the 30th, or is just the individual MEC chairs. Basically, can I bug you the next day, or should I just bug Seggy? :)
 
I would love for there to be a flow at 9e up to delta. As long as our pilots meet all their requirements such as 4 year degree ect ect
 
Kell... Bug seggy either way, I don't have to deal with you and can deny everything negative....

In all seriousness it's just the MEC heads, not all reps. I should know things quickly and there should be an email in everyone's box within a day afterwards.
 
higney85 said:
yet 9E (where the jets and many pilots will go) will be the largest DCI ALPA carrier.
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Crazy to think about. When I was first hired at Express One (now Pinnacle) over eight years ago, I was the last pilot on the list, and I was number 535. We were one of the smallest RJ operators in the country. Now you're about to be one of the largest, not even a decade later. Crazy industry.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Crazy to think about. When I was first hired at Express One (now Pinnacle) over eight years ago, I was the last pilot on the list, and I was number 535. We were one of the smallest RJ operators in the country. Now you're about to be one of the largest, not even a decade later. Crazy industry.
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Simply the best.
 
kellwolf said:
Honestly, if I were the MEC, I'd say "Look, we're having enough trouble just trying to get it to STAY. You snooze, you loose." What's the wording? Is it a one shot deal, or can you bypass the flow once? And the senior guys call US the "me first" generation.....
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Oh it was a one shot deal. They may be able to give those guys a second shot, but who knows. I'd hope so. Either way it doesn't save my furlough/senority annihilation. I'd feel a little better if a couple friends and colleagues' could catch a break.

Those senior guys didn't see this train bearing down on them. They are screwed. We've got 11 year guys, who aren't even senior at this company and finally got their upgrade, about to be junior all over again to a 6 year guy(or worse). Never mind the clowns like me who would have been stomped all over even if it was DOH, never mind this relative seniority crap. It'd be nice to see the union save a couple of the senior guys who have welcomed us onto the damn -900. No union rep over here wants any sort of airways scenarios, but I say my prayers every night for one. :)

Our union is gonna have to do the best they can to salvage something, and I've told anyone that will listen to save the senior guys. I'm 29, I'll get mine later. They really are convinced that to graduate they must cooperate. I think Colgan and Pinnacle are very lucky, our union is gonna buy the lube and thank them when it's all done. My only hope is that I'd be able to flow in a couple years after this misery of a merger and leave this debacle behind. I wouldn't shed a tear if it was just Mesaba pilots who got it either, down flow or no down flow. Might as well get something out of this deal.
 
If you're thinking about the LOA, I'm not sure it'll stand up to scrutiny. We'll see what happens, but the legislations put in place after the AA/TWA screwing may prevent the 1-2 seniority blend. We'll see. Either way, guys are gonna be hacked off. You could always try to come over to 9E as a junior FO then bid one of the open JFK CA slots. :)
 
kellwolf said:
If you're thinking about the LOA, I'm not sure it'll stand up to scrutiny. We'll see what happens, but the legislations put in place after the AA/TWA screwing may prevent the 1-2 seniority blend. We'll see. Either way, guys are gonna be hacked off. You could always try to come over to 9E as a junior FO then bid one of the open JFK CA slots. :)
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LOL. JFK? Commuting is for suckers :)!

I don't see any 1-2 crap happening, the relative stuff is gonna kill me. Although, I'd have to do the math on th list again, a 1-2 may actually be better for me, my situation is a little more unique. From what I can see, there's about 1/4 of us in the SL at different places might as well just hang ourselves now.

At least I keep my longevity and can keep paying the mortgage... there I go, trying to be positive. Best I can hope for, is a dragout of events for years. Second best, get furloughed and then start up truck driving school or HVAC repair. It blows, but all the worst case scenarios involve me flying still. I can't even get angry at myself; it just makes me wish I'd had the guts to leave Colgan (way) before the training contract expired, instead of 10 days after.

Gonna have to change my signature, "Abandon all hope."
 
Next batch of 9 are bidding for the next month class.

Word is, Moak is trying to let a few more get in before he trashes the agreement. So Pinnacle pilots, no worries, Delta is gonna get rid of that nasty flow soonish, just not right now. Once that happens the flowdown slots will be garbage as well.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Next batch of 9 are bidding for the next month class.

Word is, Moak is trying to let a few more get in before he trashes the agreement. So Pinnacle pilots, no worries, Delta is gonna get rid of that nasty flow soonish, just not right now. Once that happens the flowdown slots will be garbage as well.
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And let's see if he grows a pair and draws the line in the scope provisions and pulls some seats out of the 76 seaters. I hate to talk smack about union politics for other alpa carriers, but my guess is Moak will give in to management and brush that little provision under the rug. It's no secret southernjets management will do anything to keep those 76 seaters.
 
nc1982 said:
And let's see if he grows a pair and draws the line in the scope provisions and pulls some seats out of the 76 seaters. I hate to talk smack about union politics for other alpa carriers, but my guess is Moak will give in to management and brush that little provision under the rug. It's no secret southernjets management will do anything to keep those 76 seaters.
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I think it's more likely he'll just trade in that provision for another 5 bucks at the negotiating table.

I've heard that Moak called MES Chair, Nagel the moment the sale was announced. Supposedly some kind words were exchanged, but absolutely nothing promised. From what little I can drag out, the nails are already pre drilled for the coffin. While the hole is being dug, a few more senior pilots will flow, then it's dirt nap time.
 
nc1982 said:
And let's see if he grows a pair and draws the line in the scope provisions and pulls some seats out of the 76 seaters. I hate to talk smack about union politics for other alpa carriers, but my guess is Moak will give in to management and brush that little provision under the rug. It's no secret southernjets management will do anything to keep those 76 seaters.
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Is the language clear that says they have to pull out seats? I've heard that it's not, but I haven't had a chance to actually read it myself yet.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Is the language clear that says they have to pull out seats? I've heard that it's not, but I haven't had a chance to actually read it myself yet.
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I find it to be clear with the last LOA (I think that's how they did it when over the 76 scope clause post merger). Basically no more 70+ seaters until the 1:3 for new airframes by having a "no furlough" but then they can furlough and force a seat reduction down to 70 seats on 76ers to be at the original scope number. I would have to look. I have been a bit bogged down in contract language, see section 1.F.13.what in the world for more... (yes, I made that section up so don't go straining yourself :bandit:).
 
jynxyjoe said:
I think it's more likely he'll just trade in that provision for another 5 bucks at the negotiating table.

I've heard that Moak called MES Chair, Nagel the moment the sale was announced. Supposedly some kind words were exchanged, but absolutely nothing promised. From what little I can drag out, the nails are already pre drilled for the coffin. While the hole is being dug, a few more senior pilots will flow, then it's dirt nap time.
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I've heard for a little over a year now that the Delta MEC was gonna help us try to get our pass benefits back. I'd love to be optimistic, but I can't really see why Moak would even try to do something like that for us. I'd kinda like to see the flow stick around, just expand it to 9E as well as XJ. Be nice to have that in the back of my mind, but my luck we'd lose our contract flying with Delta in 2017, and I'd be scheduled to flow up in 2018. I'd like to see the exact contract language on the flow vs 76 seaters myself. 'Course the way I read our scope was pretty airtight, but the arbitrator saw it differently. Well, he saw it differently after he saw it the same way we did.
 
kellwolf said:
I've heard for a little over a year now that the Delta MEC was gonna help us try to get our pass benefits back. I'd love to be optimistic, but I can't really see why Moak would even try to do something like that for us. I'd kinda like to see the flow stick around, just expand it to 9E as well as XJ. Be nice to have that in the back of my mind, but my luck we'd lose our contract flying with Delta in 2017, and I'd be scheduled to flow up in 2018. I'd like to see the exact contract language on the flow vs 76 seaters myself. 'Course the way I read our scope was pretty airtight, but the arbitrator saw it differently. Well, he saw it differently after he saw it the same way we did.
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Flow won't be around in time for the 9E merge-up. Well, miracles happen, but I'd say noooooooooooooooo.

What you have to remember is Moak wants to be Lord Admiral of the ALPA Navy. Not that it's gonna be hard to get Prater out, however, Fedex don't like Moak so Lee is trying to play nice with the regionals and anyone else he can get votes off of. (btw, the Navy remark was in honor of Moak's Marine background)
 
kellwolf said:
I've heard for a little over a year now that the Delta MEC was gonna help us try to get our pass benefits back. I'd love to be optimistic, but I can't really see why Moak would even try to do something like that for us. .
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He wouldn't. Compass already got the letter their passs benifits will be the same as what 9E has now starting January 1. S3c on everthing, Parents go at buddy rate, no buddy passes, 3 international travel days per year etc etc. I have heard ALL DCI carriers will have that priority eventually once skywest's agreement runs out.
 
WalterSobchak said:
He wouldn't. Compass already got the letter their passs benifits will be the same as what 9E has now starting January 1. S3c on everthing, Parents go at buddy rate, no buddy passes, 3 international travel days per year etc etc. I have heard ALL DCI carriers will have that priority eventually once skywest's agreement runs out.
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You know what? I think that is totall BS for all of the Delta Regionals to get bottome of the barrel pass privelges. So, we can do a ton of domestic flying for Delta (the ONLY airline we fly for), yet we get just crappy passes as a show of thanks? Pinnacle, Mesaba and everyone else should be able to enjoy a decent quality of pass privileges, buddy passes etc. Whats the big deal? Do better travel passes and such cost THAT much more to the company? I feel like the Delta is just stickin it to us...over and over again...
 
jynxyjoe said:
What you have to remember is Moak wants to be Lord Admiral of the ALPA Navy. Not that it's gonna be hard to get Prater out, however, Fedex don't like Moak so Lee is trying to play nice with the regionals and anyone else he can get votes off of. (btw, the Navy remark was in honor of Moak's Marine background)
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From what I've been hearing for the past couple of months, he doesn't even plan to run for national office. I suspect that he can't get the votes of some of his own MEC members.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
From what I've been hearing for the past couple of months, he doesn't even plan to run for national office. I suspect that he can't get the votes of some of his own MEC members.
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My limited understanding on this, is that Moak's biggest obstacle is Fedex, but Delta is all shored up.
 
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