Mesa TA

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
I just read it and it is a disgrace that the MEC actually signed off on it. It is basically the same contract we have now, except maybe worse.

1) 2.1% raise for FOs in 2010, which is able to be discarded by Mesa if they chose to get rid of PBS within a year.
2) The training contract is increased (a lot more than 2.1% too)
3) New requirement to check in with crew stalker before every trip, so as to make it easier for them to JA you. That is a NO vote right there.
4) Ambiguous language still remains (ie "Junior available", "Company's best effort", etc.)

It is a complete disgrace that our MEC approved this. What the hell kind of message are they trying to send?
 

CamYZ125

Well-Known Member
Hm. I still haven't had the chance to look at it, maybe today. But from the sounds of that, I'll be voting NO.
 

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
Not for a while. I am going to talk to all my co-workers and ask them to vote no, not only just for us but for everyone else. I'd rather be in negotiations for another 2 years than have some bankruptcy judge rule that this is now the industry standard if XJET/etc goes BK.
 

JumpWake

Well-Known Member
Were there any improvements? I was reading somewhere that block or better finally found it's way in there.... Good luck to you guys...I know exactly where you're coming from.
 

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
Yeah, block or better, increased days off for reserve pilots. Reserves will have pretty much the same days off as line holders, so why bid for a line in the first place?
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
Yeah, block or better, increased days off for reserve pilots. Reserves will have pretty much the same days off as line holders, so why bid for a line in the first place?
Your reserve guys were getting, what, 8 days off a "bid period?" That's pretty insane right there. Hell, 10 days off gets old after a while. If you're on reserve with no end in sight, the extra day off or two might be the difference in voting "yes" or "no." Although, it should be a min day off increase across the board. The only reason our reserves get 10 days off is b/c that's the minimum days off you can get. There are some lines with only 10 days off, too, and most high speed lines are only 10 days off here.

No raises until 2010? The way JO runs that place, it might not be around in 2010. The checking in before a trip thing we have to do here, and I don't see that as a big hassle. It's the checking OUT that sucks. THAT'S when they JA you here. Most of the time when checking in for a trip, they haven't thought far enough ahead in the JA scheme to hit you with another trip after the one you're checking in for.

I saw some things in the MEC letter posted a few weeks back that I liked and would like to see here. Just the few things you posted in this thread pretty much negates those.

On a brighter note, seems the threat of a possible Democrat slanted NMB coupled with a Delta merger has scared the company into negotiating again. Word is they hammered out a 37 page PBS deal with the negotiating committee last week, and they're meeting again this week to try to wrap up the things we're still apart on.
 

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
Good for you kell :) That is why I want this thing voted down and for good measure a vote authorizing a strike to be made. Maybe if Management thinks the NMB will actually (eventually) release us for our cooling off period that they will actually negotiate in good faith.

We've only been in negotiations for like 11 months though, nowhere near the 5 years you guys have.
 

H46Bubba

Well-Known Member
Good for you kell :) That is why I want this thing voted down and for good measure a vote authorizing a strike to be made. Maybe if Management thinks the NMB will actually (eventually) release us for our cooling off period that they will actually negotiate in good faith.

We've only been in negotiations for like 11 months though, nowhere near the 5 years you guys have.
Sounds like the MAG MEC needs a little house cleaning. This is the second TA thet the MEC has signed off on?:rolleyes: I really hope you guys get what you want, but with the financial position the company is in, there's really no way you'd get it unless JO is somehow reborn again and has seen the light! Vote NO until you guys get what you want. JO needs this contract to get his stock price up.
 

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
Actually they rejected it the first time. The first one must have been 'You are indentured servants to mesa air group and have no rights' if they thought this was an improvement.
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
Actually they rejected it the first time. The first one must have been 'You are indentured servants to mesa air group and have no rights' if they thought this was an improvement.
Yeah, I think it was the negotiating committee that signed off on it, and the Mesa MEC told them to get back to work. From what I heard of the first agreement, I'd have sacked the negotiating committee for even recommending it to the MEC.
 

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
Yeah, I think it was the negotiating committee that signed off on it, and the Mesa MEC told them to get back to work. From what I heard of the first agreement, I'd have sacked the negotiating committee for even recommending it to the MEC.
Seriously.


Additional concessions which we are giving away on part of the pilot group if we ratify this TA:

5) Can no longer decline a standing bid award
6) No trip trades or pickups out of domicile
7) PBS (language on pairings doesn't bode well.)
8) Our dignity
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
I'd be curious what the language on the pairing is. Our pairings seem to change month-to-month. For example, rumor is next month, it's gonna be all 2-days and day trips. A few months ago, they tried all 3 day trips and it was a MISERABLE failure. That and there was almost a riot since PBS pretty much gave everyone two three day trips back to back at least once. I'm not a scheduling genius, but December doesn't sound like the best month to experiment with the pairings. No doubt you'll need extra people for the call-ins around Xmas.
 

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
I thought this was a great post, was posted at the Mesa Forums.

Greetings fellow MESA Pilots,

I apologize in advance for such a long post. I'm going to give you a little MESA ALPA negotiation history and my opinion of this TA and hopefully persuade some of you to agree. I've been driven to respond due to some comments made on this forum and others. Let me introduce myself so that you know where I'm coming from:

I'm a relatively senior MESA Captain and this will be my first posting on any forum. I'm just your average under-the-radar line pilot. By senior I mean I arrived at MESA at about the same time JO arrived. I started in the "Mighty Beech 1900D Airliner", experienced 9/11, suffered through the last contract negotiations and the Freedom A fiasco, etc...etc. I stay out of trouble and politics. I was always on the MESA certificate. I've never held an ALPA position. For those of you wondering why I'm still here, the only thing I can say is that I have a lot of freinds who got their dream airline/corporate/cargo job and are now "working at Home Depot" as the saying goes. I've made some attempts at leaving but always hesitated at the last minute. Financially the decision to stay has been good. Personally it has been a huge sacrifice. (I wish others on these forums had the courage to give a brief description of themselves as well. I usually stay away from these forums because of all the anonymous tough guys, ha!). I've kept quiet so far and reserved my opinion until the TA was available for review.

During the last negotiations I personally learned a lot about how these things work. I see some of the same misunderstandings, frustrations, and questions as last time. Most if this is due to our MEC doing a poor job educating the pilot group about the intracacies of a contract negotiation. In defense of the MEC and the Negotiating Committee, a lot of the confusion is caused by the nature of the Railway Labor Act. It is a very restrictive law that severely limits the actions of our MEC and Negotiating Committee. They are bound by law and can't tell you that there are certain things they can't tell you, get it? They are currently doing the best they can under the present laws. All of their actions can be used against them "in a court of law" if it came to that. The arbitration judge is an appointee. Some times they lean towards labor in their decisions but in the last eight years they have not. If it gets to that point where a judge is involved our MEC and Neg. Comm. has to have a clean record. The judge is also supposed to take into account the actions of management during these negotiations.

Now for my opinion of this TA. During the last negotiations management had us up against the wall. It was just after 9/11. The Bush administration told the arbitrators that there would be no strikes indefinately due to "national emergency", Freedom A was receiving two shiny new CRJ900's with full crew every six weeks, there were massive furloughs throughout the industry, the CCAir certificate was purchased, shelved and the CCAir pilots were kicked to the curb. We were being replaced by "street pilots" with no recourse, so when the opportunity to scope out alter-ego flying and bring in the CCAir pilots presented itself we as a pilot group voted to continue the current contract WITH NO CONCESSIONS. At the time we felt it was the best thing to do to preserve ALPA flying at MAG and all the other regionals. Believe me, the other regional managements were watching very closely. They follow each others lead as far as anti-labor strategies and tactics. We were being told by ALPA at the time that we were saving ALPA at the regionals. We were under a lot of pressure to "take one for the team" meaning all of the regional ALPA pilots. There were other regional pilot groups at the time talking about separating from ALPA (you know who your are). We MESA guys naively thought we would be recieved as heros by all the other ALPA pilots. We conquerd an alter-ego, aquired the best scope language in the industry, saved the CCAir pilots jobs and gave managements throughout the industry a reason to change their strategy. Under the circumstances we were lucky to keep our jobs. If we had failed MESA would be non-union, TranStates was scheduled to be next and there were others to follow. A few years later GOJets pops up on radar. I personally had the option of going to Freedom A, turned it down and remained in the right seat of the CRJ for two years while "others" off the street and junior to me became 900 Captains. So those of you out there asking "you should have gone on strike" and "you guys are dragging the industry down" should educate yourselves and think about what you are saying. Go research some ALPA history and learn the word whip-saw. Oh and the 20 year old pilot from another ALPA regional who called me a "scab", go to hell.

Now for this TA. This is a NEGOTIATION. During the last negotiation we collectively said "NEVER AGAIN". We all vowed to fight like hell and get at least an industry standard contract. Well here we are and more than half our pilot group is new and has no idea what this negotiation entails. Some of the guys I fly with were 16 years old during the last one and have zero knowledge of the railway labor act. I get guys who have been here a year asking, "what are dues?", and "why do we even need a union?" When I ask them if they would like to be on reserve the rest of their career and have someone junior to them get an upgrade out of seniority in front of them, or have the company cancel your vacation, etc, etc. They say, "they can't do that." This what prompted this long winded post.

To sum it up this TA is a huge disappointment. I know MESA is in trouble but I personally have reached the point where I would rather "work at Home Depot" than accept this slap in the face of an agreement. After all these years of knowing exactly what needs to be changed in our contract we get this thing.

PBS works great IF YOU ARE STAFFED properly and management keeps their hands off. We need a staffing clause.

Two more days off a year for line holders? Is this what I waited all these years for? 0.16 more days off a month.

Two hour check in. What, to be JA'd? Am I in high school?

Where is trip/duty rigs? This is what we vowed we would get last time.

After reading the new TA I can find no reason to accept it. It is actually insulting. I know we are going to be told that the airline industry is in turmoil and MESA may soon go bankrupt so we better accept. I've heard that one before and now I'm called a "bottom feeder" by strangers walking through the terminal. I now say, "so what?" Let's send it back with a 100% NO Vote. They'll either come back with something substantial or we strike. I don't say this lightly: If it drives us into bankruptcy then good riddance. We are heading that way anyway with or without a better contract. I don't want to see another generation of pilots sacrificed for nothing. For those of you young guys thinking "1000 hours of PIC and I'm out of here so what do I care" be careful, odds are you'll be here a little longer than that and you'll eventually want a life other than working your ass off.

Until I see a staffing clause and many more minimum days off then you can expect a NO vote from me. Let's send a message to these clowns. We don't want to work under these conditions any more, period.

Thanks and Good Luck
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
Great post, and I think it sums up the recent history of Mesa pretty well.

TWO HOUR check-in? That's beyond ridiculous. We have to check in on the computers via CrewTrac here at the beginning of a trip, but we only have to do it 45 minutes. It was 60 minutes in ATL, but that LOA expired last week and scheduling is scrambling to cope with it. For some reason, they can't fathom the idea that we just don't want to show up that extra 15 minutes out of the goodness of our hearts. Oh well. Show me a contract, and we'll talk about it.
 

CamYZ125

Well-Known Member
Well, I just finished reading over it..

The 2.1% raise is a joke.

Everything else seems to be tied to PBS. Clearly, the company really wants PBS. There is a clause stating that either party (company or union) can discontinue the use of PBS within one year of signing. If that happens, pretty much all of the so called 'improvements' go out the window, and it's pretty much the exact same contract as before.

I'm not sure how I feel about PBS. I think it may be dangerous in the hands of MAG management, even with 'scheduling committee oversight'. Sure, PBS is probably a good idea for a company, as it allows for a more efficiently run airline, but I don't know if I want it. I have a feeling there will be even more staffing reductions if PBS is signed in.

I guess I don't mind 'checking in' on a computer, for the purpose of acknowledging changes to my schedule, but I don't like the minimum 2-hour timeframe. Actually, the whole thing is kind of stupid to me. This isn't a job at burger king, we shouldn't be required to check in for work.

150% pay for open time pickup is gone (but there likely won't be much open time, with PBS).

200% pay for junior assignments, and 'improper reassignments'. As far as I can tell, an 'improper reassignment' is an assignment outside the 'footprint' of your original schedule. Wasn't that what a junior assignment was anyway?

11 days off.. better for reserves, but I wanted to see at least 12 for lineholders.


So I guess what it comes down to for me is, PBS or no PBS..
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
PBS takes your QoL and shoots it in the head without good oversight. If it's not in the contract, vote "no." Trust me on this one. PBS is one of the HUGE sticking points in our current negotiations. Over three days, the company and the union have hammered out a 37 page file on PBS alone.....and they're still pretty far apart on some issues. I'd say PBS is holding us up more right now than pay and scope are. Also, keep in mind it took the official merger announcement at Delta, Obama winning and Colgan more than likely going ALPA just to get the company this far.
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Evil Landlord Capitalist
Sorry to hear this, guys. Just do what we did last year: vote it down by a wide margin and send a new set of negotiators back to the table. This is no time to take a substandard agreement. It's morning in America again for organized labor.

On a brighter note, seems the threat of a possible Democrat slanted NMB coupled with a Delta merger has scared the company into negotiating again.
Amazing, huh? He's not even in office yet, but management is already trembling. I freakin' love it! :D
 
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