Maximum Number of Checkride Failures?

WacoFan said:
OK guys, I mostly "listen" in this sub-forum, but I have a question.

When my Grandpa was at TWA (1953 - 1984) they had a zero tolerance for checkride failures (my understanding). They had an up or out type of policy as well. Every FO was sent through upgrade training when they were in their fifth year at the airline - whether their seniority could actually hold Captain or not. If they busted this, they were fired. If they busted a competency check, they were fired. I am wondering a couple things:

1) Do any airlines still have policies like this?
2) When did the airlines start to change on this issue (I think they all used to be similar to TWA.
3) Why did the airlines start to change on this issue? Supply and demand in the pilot ranks? Training costs?
4) Was the old way better?

I tried to post a question along this line in the general forum and was met with crickets, but would love to know. Thanks in advance.
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One company has this training policy:

4. Attempts to Qualify
A pilot will be allowed two (2) consecutive attempts to qualify for any
initial, upgrade, transition or differences training program. A pilot who
fails a first attempt to qualify will be returned to his previous position as
provided in subsection C.10., below. A pilot returned to his previous
position will not be awarded an upgrade or transition for twelve (12)
months from the date of failure. A pilot who fails a second consecutive
attempt to qualify, will be subject to the provisions of subsection C.6.,
below. The number of opportunities afforded a pilot within each
consecutive attempt to qualify will be as follows:
a. A pilot will be afforded two (2) opportunities to pass the ground
school written exam.
b. Upon successful completion of ground school, a pilot will be
afforded two (2) opportunities to pass the oral exam.​
​

c. A pilot who successfully passes the oral exam will be afforded two
(2) opportunities to be recommended for a flight check.
d. A pilot who is recommended for a flight check will be afforded
two (2) opportunities to pass the check ride.
e. A pilot who successfully completes a check ride will be afforded
two (2) opportunities to successfully complete his Operating
Experience. A pilot who does not successfully complete his
Operating Experience in the first of such two opportunities, will
receive the second opportunity with a different Check Airman
selected by the Company.
5. A pilot in each of two (2) consecutive attempts to qualify, who fails the
first opportunity as in subsection 4.a.,b.,c., or d. above, will receive
additional training in an amount to be determined by the Vice President
Flight Operations or his designee, prior to being afforded a second
opportunity.
6. A pilot is only subject to termination, at the discretion of the Company, if
he fails two (2) consecutive attempts to successfully complete any initial,
upgrade, transition or differences training program.
7. A pilot failing any required check ride will not be scheduled for a re-check
on the same day. The second check ride may be monitored by the FAA, at
the pilot’s request, subject to FAA availability.
a. At the pilot’s request, the re-check will be conducted with a
different Check Airman, selected by the Company.
b. On critical check rides, (i.e., re-check after failure, certificate
action, or termination), a pilot may request that an Association
observer be present.
8. A pilot’s withdrawal from an initial, upgrade, transition or differences
training before successful completion, without compelling reason, will be
treated as a failure.
9. Check rides will be scheduled within seven (7) days of the completion of
flight training. If not completed within seven (7) days, upon request by
the pilot, additional flight training will be afforded. The amount of
additional training will be determined by the Vice President Flight
Operations or his designee.
10. Return To Previous Position
a. A pilot who returns to his previous position pursuant to subsection
C.4. above, will be allowed one (1) attempt to re-qualify for that
position. If the pilot does not successfully re-qualify on the first
try, he will be given a minimum of two (2) hours of training and a
re-check. If he does not re-qualify on the second try, he may, at​
the discretion of the Company, be terminated
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WacoFan said:
OK guys, I mostly "listen" in this sub-forum, but I have a question.

When my Grandpa was at TWA (1953 - 1984) they had a zero tolerance for checkride failures (my understanding). They had an up or out type of policy as well. Every FO was sent through upgrade training when they were in their fifth year at the airline - whether their seniority could actually hold Captain or not. If they busted this, they were fired. If they busted a competency check, they were fired. I am wondering a couple things:

1) Do any airlines still have policies like this?
2) When did the airlines start to change on this issue (I think they all used to be similar to TWA.
3) Why did the airlines start to change on this issue? Supply and demand in the pilot ranks? Training costs?
4) Was the old way better?

I tried to post a question along this line in the general forum and was met with crickets, but would love to know. Thanks in advance.
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Definitely not the case at most places now. I think CRM back then was non-existent and a "tough guy" mentality reigned, which is why there were such arcane policies. I'm sure this created a cocky attitude in SOME that created an air of overconfidence in ability. Failures occur for a multitude of reasons that do not lie on the applicant sometimes.

I am very happy that most progressive safety/training departments are taking the "Threat Error Management" approach to CRM. Its mentality is that we ALL make mistakes and it's how we DEAL with those errors that counts, not that we made them.
 
wick81 said:
Not true. I was in initial with this guy and we were all in the Saab. He never flew or trained in the 1900 at Colgan.
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Inaccurate reporting somewhere, then, as I had read that he failed 1900 initial and then Saab upgrade, passed Q upgrade.
 
At Sierra Flight academy a Chinese student could fail every stage check and fail all of his check rides. Plus the check airman would just pass them because they are going back to china and not staying in the states. Her words not mine. Now they are flying 737's and A320's
 
Everyone has bad days you're probably going to fail one or two checks in your career. That's the whole point, if a system keeps passing people then it's not working properly. But if you have a pattern of failures that should be a red flag. I think failing to complete an entire airline training program should be more of a red flag then failing one or two pc checks.
 
Buzo said:
At NWA, they wouldn't hire anyone who had more than 2 failures.
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Buzo said:
Total
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Buzo brings up a good point. It's all about playing a game to get to the top tier.

Knowing this stuff, which I didn't when I started my flight training, would totally change my perspective.

Had I done 141, instead of part 61, I would have 0 failures in primary training.

And once a requirement is set like NWA has, and I'm sure they're not the only ones, nothing you do to right your record can change the basic requirements.
 
Polar742 said:
Buzo brings up a good point. It's all about playing a game to get to the top tier.

Knowing this stuff, which I didn't when I started my flight training, would totally change my perspective.

Had I done 141, instead of part 61, I would have 0 failures in primary training.

And once a requirement is set like NWA has, and I'm sure they're not the only ones, nothing you do to right your record can change the basic requirements.
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unless at your interview they ask about stage checks (which are really just another lesson) when i interviewed at Mesaba they asked about stage checks and i think that is why i didn't get it.
 
Max? No clue. Most likely depends on the whole package.

I'll check with my croanies that know for sure, but I'll bet they're going to say that busting your PPL is a lot different than busting a 121 check.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Max? No clue. Most likely depends on the whole package.

I'll check with my croanies that know for sure, but I'll bet they're going to say that busting your PPL is a lot different than busting a 121 check.
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I think even busting a 121 check can be a bit of a blip on the radar, but not the entire picture.

As an example, one of my buddies failed his initial PC at ExpressJet. He said his sim partner hosed him, didn't understand the automation, didn't do what he asked him to do in the sim, blah blah blah.

Now normally? I say, "BS, just man up and admit you screwed up."

I don't buy that with this guy, as I trained him at Amflight and I know exactly how good of a pilot he is. He's the real deal, and one hell of a great pilot.

So one 121 failure? A blip. He passed multiple part 135 rides, passed on the retraining at Express, and is now a Compass FO with a PIC type in the 175; he's got one failure on his record total, and the rest of the picture that you see is that he's a competent pilot.
 
Any single failure is a blip, but if you're busting type rides and recurrents on a regular basis, it will certainly raise an eyebrow when someone reviews your application.

I'm really surprised the media wasn't all over the Nashville Eagle accident which sparked the Pilot Record Improvement Act and tried to draw parallels to the Colgan accident. Not that it's sequitur to the accident, but I've heard some pretty wacky misconclusions so far.

Ooh, I think I just made up a word.
 
jtrain609 said:
I think even busting a 121 check can be a bit of a blip on the radar, but not the entire picture.

As an example, one of my buddies failed his initial PC at ExpressJet. He said his sim partner hosed him, didn't understand the automation, didn't do what he asked him to do in the sim, blah blah blah.

Now normally? I say, "BS, just man up and admit you screwed up."

I don't buy that with this guy, as I trained him at Amflight and I know exactly how good of a pilot he is. He's the real deal, and one hell of a great pilot.

So one 121 failure? A blip. He passed multiple part 135 rides, passed on the retraining at Express, and is now a Compass FO with a PIC type in the 175; he's got one failure on his record total, and the rest of the picture that you see is that he's a competent pilot.
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Wow, this must be the only thing Mesa does better than ExpressJet. But at Mesa your sim instructor performs the PNF duties and your partner waits outside for his turn just so that that wouldn't happen.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
Wow, this must be the only thing Mesa does better than ExpressJet. But at Mesa your sim instructor performs the PNF duties and your partner waits outside for his turn just so that that wouldn't happen.
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I'd call that a bad thing.

The sim instructor could be carrying his or her own student masking some deficiencies in the training.
 
Thats what the sim instructor certainly tries to do, because he/she wants his student to pass. But the examiners don't really let them help. Our instructor tried to help my sim partner but got shutdown real quick and told to remain quiet the rest of the flight and only perform checklists that are called for. Sim partner did manage to pass though.
 
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