Maximum Number of Checkride Failures?

I agree.

But having a sim instructor be the PNF would be more of an advantage wouldn't you think?

Everyone makes mistakes.

On my most recent type ride, I had a sim instructor as my NFP, PNF, PM, whatever. On the most difficult maneuver, he made an error in the FMS, inspite of my explicit instructions twice given, which resulted in me "experimenting" on the type ride.

It came out all good, but such is the nature of having another human with you. We're all prone to make mistakes.
 
I agree.

But having a sim instructor be the PNF would be more of an advantage wouldn't you think?

Depends on the instructor. :) If the check airman in the back gives you a decision making call on a type ride that goes outside of the normal flows and checks, I'd rather have another line pilot than a sim instructor that's never been in the actual airplane......which is actually quite a lot of ours.
 
Depends on the instructor. :) If the check airman in the back gives you a decision making call on a type ride that goes outside of the normal flows and checks, I'd rather have another line pilot than a sim instructor that's never been in the actual airplane......which is actually quite a lot of ours.

I posted this on another thread, but if Pinnacle (Corp/Holdings/Airlines/Whatever) was serious about safety and training standards they'd have pilots who actually fly the plane teach and evaluate. Mesa has just discovered that they can find furloughed guys from United/etc and pay them 45k to teach sim, as opposed to the over 100Gs that a Mesa pilot would make.
 
I think a distinction needs to be made between "primary certification" checkrides (PPL, IR, CPL, CFI) and actual 121 and 135 checkrides.

If a guy busted an initial instrument and a CFI ride years ago, this should not have an impact on his airline career IMO
 
I think a distinction needs to be made between "primary certification" checkrides (PPL, IR, CPL, CFI) and actual 121 and 135 checkrides.

If a guy busted an initial instrument and a CFI ride years ago, this should not have an impact on his airline career IMO
i agree. those are all learning rides. if you make a mistake you learn and don't do it again
 
At Sierra Flight academy a Chinese student could fail every stage check and fail all of his check rides. Plus the check airman would just pass them because they are going back to china and not staying in the states. Her words not mine. Now they are flying 737's and A320's

Hah, I worked there for a while. That place is terrifying from the students all the way up to the DPEs.
 
I posted this on another thread, but if Pinnacle (Corp/Holdings/Airlines/Whatever) was serious about safety and training standards they'd have pilots who actually fly the plane teach and evaluate. Mesa has just discovered that they can find furloughed guys from United/etc and pay them 45k to teach sim, as opposed to the over 100Gs that a Mesa pilot would make.

You might want to pass this concern up the food chain, or even bypass the top of the food chain at your company and let someone else hear about it. Right now is a good time for training at our level to be improved.
 
How do failures work in military flight training?

If I recall correctly, there were close to 200 graded sorties at Air Force UPT, including flights and sims. Seven of these were evaluations to determine whether or not you could continue in the program. Four were given in the T-6 (primary) phase, known as Mid-Phase, Final Contact, Instrument, and Formation. Three were given in the T-1 (advanced) phase, known as Transition, Navigation, and Mission Familiarization. Sorry -38 guys, I can't speak for you, although I think they took four checkrides in the fighter/bomber track. About 50%, at least when I was at Laughlin in '05, failed the Mid Phase, and it was the exception to the rule to have someone go all the way through without failing a single checkride. As a matter of fact, no one in my T-1 flight made it all the way through UPT without busting at least one ride (daily or check), and most busted way more than that. The syllabus was strictly built to require certain levels of proficiency by the end of each block of training. If you weren't at the required level of proficiency by the end of the block, the only grade available to you was Unsat. If you failed a checkride (or three daily rides in a row), you get sent to what's called a PC (Progress Check), or "88 ride". While you had to pass the maneuver(s) you had previously failed on the initial check, it tended to be a bigger picture snapshot of the individual's progress in the program, usually given by a Flight Commander or higher, with an eye to determine whether they were able to complete the program within syllabus constraints and were otherwise trainable. If you failed the PC, then you are sent to an EC (Elimination Check), or "89 ride". This is an even bigger picture look at the student, usually given by the squadron leadership, to determine whether or not they should continue in training. If you pass the EC, you're placed right back in training at the point you would have been had you passed the original sort(ies) in question. If you failed the EC, you're sent to the commander's review board and probably kicked out. You are allowed one 88 ride for the T-6 course, and one more for the T-1 course. Once it's gone (or failed), then you proceed directly to the EC (Elimination Ride) for each subsequent failure. Once you're awarded wings, these "check rides" don't appear on your official military flight evaluation file, so I'm not really sure whether or not they're reportable as failed check rides. They're given by instructor pilots, as opposed to evaluator pilots, so they more likely fit the definition of a "stage check" as it were. Anyway, after UPT, you attend training in your major weapon system, where you're issued a Certificate of Aircrew Qualification (Form 8), and all checkrides from that point on are official military checkrides given by evaluator pilots, and the records follow you in your flight evaluation file. I don't know to what extent, if any, your military FEF is releasable to employers; I do know the airlines expressed concern in connection with the PRIA that it doesn't apply to military training records. Well, I hope that answers your questions--let me know if it didn't.
 
Germ,


Your post is too thorough, informative, and helpful. Try to be more crass and cryptically brief next time.



Totally kidding. Thanks for taking the time to write your response - I learned a ton!

J.
 
That was definitley an excellent post by Germ. It was very informative. From listening to Velo, he made it seem like any failure in military flight training and you are done. That doesnt seem to be the case at all.
 
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