CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
We had an instructor give a guy that just his CFI certs a 2.5 hour ground lesson. Needless to say, the guy was pissed. There was NO WAY it should have taken that long. It goes both ways.
Max Flight Time for a BFR? :ARGH:
- Thread starter jhugz
- Start date
Agreed. My flight review always starts with the question, what kind of flying do you do and then we discuss a plan of action. Usually two hours of brief/flight for each person, one to review things and send them home to study/chair fly and then the second for sign off.
PilotRob950
Well-Known Member
Here's a couple horror stories for ya.
A gentleman came in for a Flight Review in his Cherokee with a CFI buddy of mine. They did about 2 hours of ground only to find out the pilot was in need of quite a refresher but insisted on still doing the flight that day. Needless to say his flying left little to be desired. After about a week the same pilot called another friend of mine to finish the review (keep in mind my friend had not heard that this guy had flown with our other buddy CFI.) The pilot insisted they fly first so my friend said okay. All I can say is that a novel could be written on this short flight as to went wrong (includes: no situational awareness without his GPS in the back of the plane only 7 miles from the airport, couldn't perform a single manuever, flared way too high over the runway, and the real cream on the cake: too big in the airplane that he can't reach down to grab the mechanical flap handle, and doesn't really seem to shower either.) Now my friend was more than happy to work with him to bring him back up to speed. That was not what he wanted to hear and made an excuss for everything my buddy made a list of in flight. Well that wasn't the end of the story. About another week later, he called wanting to speak to every other CFI we had to work on his review. By this time the word had spred and no one would fly with him other than the original instructors.
On another note. I had an to give another pilot an IPC who hadn't flown on instruments for some time. After 8 flights and 2 ground sessions I still was not ready to sign him off. At this time he tried to have me fired (but thankfully my boss knew better) and transferred to another instructor. In my defence, on every flight I had to intervene in some way shape or form. He also flew about 8 more flights with the next instructor and 5 flights with the one after that before getting the IPC signoff.
It is scary some of the pilots out there that can't realize they need more recurrent training and choose to continue flying as is.
A gentleman came in for a Flight Review in his Cherokee with a CFI buddy of mine. They did about 2 hours of ground only to find out the pilot was in need of quite a refresher but insisted on still doing the flight that day. Needless to say his flying left little to be desired. After about a week the same pilot called another friend of mine to finish the review (keep in mind my friend had not heard that this guy had flown with our other buddy CFI.) The pilot insisted they fly first so my friend said okay. All I can say is that a novel could be written on this short flight as to went wrong (includes: no situational awareness without his GPS in the back of the plane only 7 miles from the airport, couldn't perform a single manuever, flared way too high over the runway, and the real cream on the cake: too big in the airplane that he can't reach down to grab the mechanical flap handle, and doesn't really seem to shower either.) Now my friend was more than happy to work with him to bring him back up to speed. That was not what he wanted to hear and made an excuss for everything my buddy made a list of in flight. Well that wasn't the end of the story. About another week later, he called wanting to speak to every other CFI we had to work on his review. By this time the word had spred and no one would fly with him other than the original instructors.
On another note. I had an to give another pilot an IPC who hadn't flown on instruments for some time. After 8 flights and 2 ground sessions I still was not ready to sign him off. At this time he tried to have me fired (but thankfully my boss knew better) and transferred to another instructor. In my defence, on every flight I had to intervene in some way shape or form. He also flew about 8 more flights with the next instructor and 5 flights with the one after that before getting the IPC signoff.
It is scary some of the pilots out there that can't realize they need more recurrent training and choose to continue flying as is.
poser765
Well-Known Member
How on Earth do you justify parts of 141 for a flight review? Ever? Even for a cfi who teaches 141? And good god...part 25? what a phallic.
saria19
Well-Known Member
Seems more like he is just covering his bases for every eventuality. And as an instructor who teaches 141, I have to applaud him...
caliginousface
Frank N. Beans
There is really no reason Part 25 - Airworthiness Standards for Transport Category needs to be visited during a flight review pertaining to Normal Category aircraft. Must be an Erby Diddle thing to keep students longer than needed to rack up the ground time.
If you are checking someone out under the new WINGS program, the student's maneuvers have to be within PTS.
http://www.faasafety.gov/WINGS/pppinfo/requirementDetails.aspx
http://www.faasafety.gov/WINGS/pppinfo/requirementDetails.aspx
IMO they should be.
And to the others, it was a Daniel Webster thing but not them just this particular CFI was a ....
jhugz
Well-Known Member
I teach 141 & you have to be gouging people for money to do what that guy did. I do what I need to do to cover my arse. If I use the FAA doc on how to conduct a flight review to a T...then I think I have covered my backside well enough without screwing the student.
jhugz
Well-Known Member
I've nvr heard of anyone getting violated or killed due to their steep turns being out of PTS standards. Your not prepping them for a checkride, you are making sure they are proficient and safe in their daily duties as a pilot.
And a proficient pilot IMO shouldn't have any problem holding PTS steep turns. I am not worried about the violation so much as the demonstration of capable performance. Let me ask you this, if PTS isn't what you hold them to on steep turns, how bout on stalls? What is ok for steep turns +/- 150..200...500? If they sit down with me I set the PTS in front of them and say this is your standard you will meet it for a sign off. If they don't like that, they can leave, no skin off my back.
There has to be a standard, without a standard there is chaos, just my opinion of course but it is what I will stick to for signing off BFRs.
If you teach 141 you know that you have set lessons for each course. If you devoid a student from those lessons for a BFR and still include the content of those lessons in the BFR lessons with the expectation to just repeat them again, you're not covering bases you're milking your student. You give a BFR to the needs of the student at the time, there was absolutely no need for me to cover 141/25 sign offs for any BFR.
Furthermore, covering every last bit of instrument content when I was only 8/30 (approximately I don't remember exact) lessons into my instrument training, knowing the next 22 lessons would just recover that information is absurd. It was a BFR for my private, VFR certificate, not for IFR. Also when I say everything I mean it, from portable electric razors being allowed to de-icing equipment and what types of icing you could operate in as a VFR pilot. I took close to 20 pages front and back of notes on the FARs we covered, which mind you I don't even have because they had to go in my folder and I never thought to make copies, stupid me.
He had me by the gonads because I was trying to complete my long (250NM) cross country which our school did during the instrument training for commercial. I needed his BFR sign off so I could do this flight and he basically redid my private with me with all the instrument knowledge which I hadn't even gotten to yet and ended up redoing anyways during the required lessons.
29.92inHg
Well-Known Member
Earlier when I mentioned the PTS maneuvers, I meant that I didn't mind if I had to talk them through the setup for the maneuver. For example if you want to see a power off stall in a bank, I will remind them that it is in the landing configuration and to make sure they establish a decent before performing the maneuver, also promt them when to enter the bank. The recovery is what I want to see. I usually take the power off stall to the break and the power on to the first indication, just so they have stalled a plane in the last two years and also so I can see that they recognize the first indication of a stall (which is what you want in real life). I could care less if they remember all of the steps to set up a PTS manuever. The collision avoidance and airmanship is what I want to see. I'm really looking for decision making and to let it be an opportunity to identify bad habits that have started to solidify, in the two years since they have flown with an instructor.
With checkride prep you have to worry about the each step of the maneuver. In a flight review I want to see the skills involved with those maneuvers applied with actual flight. I guess really I treat a Flight Review with more situational based training and checkride prep as checkride prep. Sorry for the rambling, but I just wanted to clear that up
With checkride prep you have to worry about the each step of the maneuver. In a flight review I want to see the skills involved with those maneuvers applied with actual flight. I guess really I treat a Flight Review with more situational based training and checkride prep as checkride prep. Sorry for the rambling, but I just wanted to clear that up
29.92inHg
Well-Known Member
That's just ridiculous...
Now that I agree with, memorization of maneuver procedures isn't as important to me as their ability to accomplish the maneuver given the right procedure.
I completly agree with you. If you don't have the strength to do a stall, what do you do when the pooppy hits the fan?
Scream really loud and let go of the controls, I swear it works! Screaming scares the airplane into flying better.