Maneuvers in IMC
- Thread starter sixpack
- Start date
I have done it once. It is a great experience becuase you will more than likely get some vertigo and it helped me to see you that will play with your mind. As for the airspace, here in Minneapolis, it is usually no problem to get a block of airsoace to per form them in. My home apt is slightly over 10 miles from the MSP apt and it si under thier Class B space. ATC will usually give you 2000 ft between two radials (250-270) or something like that. Don't leave the radials and you will be fine.
By myself, I would just shoot the approaches. My CFI was with during that time. It really helped in letting me know the instruments really do work and keep you flying right. The extra eyes of my CFI help as well. If I started to slip the least bit, he would let me know.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Holds in IMC can be interesting. I was practicing holds with my instructor one day, and ATC told me to climb from 3000 to 4000. So here I was in IMC, in a climbing right turn. What's my instructor do? Throws a pencil at me, which then lands in the floor between my feet. Then he tells me to pick it up. Talk about spatial disorientation! My brain was telling me I was upside down. Really made me focus on the instruments and not my equilibrium.
C650CPT
Well-Known Member
My thoughts
Don't do it, Wouldn't do it.
In your maneuver analysis you should consider Task, Conditions and Standards. For certain tasks like Steep Turns, Stalls and max performance maneuver ie:commercial maneuvers the purpose of these tasks, while not neccessary in normal day to day flying, are important in developing pilot skills.
The conditions for training these maneuvers should be VMC conditions with special attention for night time training. Doing these in IMC conditions in my opioion creats an unsafe or reduced margin of safety in the training enviroment. Why train these maneuvers in the operational enviroment that you would never need or use them in?
IMHO.
Don't do it, Wouldn't do it.
In your maneuver analysis you should consider Task, Conditions and Standards. For certain tasks like Steep Turns, Stalls and max performance maneuver ie:commercial maneuvers the purpose of these tasks, while not neccessary in normal day to day flying, are important in developing pilot skills.
The conditions for training these maneuvers should be VMC conditions with special attention for night time training. Doing these in IMC conditions in my opioion creats an unsafe or reduced margin of safety in the training enviroment. Why train these maneuvers in the operational enviroment that you would never need or use them in?
IMHO.
E_Dawg
Moderator
I agree. Basketball players don't practice half-court shots in practice, they'll never really get to do them in the game.
I'd find a lake or other dark area and do the maneuvers in VMC. It'll be just like IMC because your student won't have any visual reference whatsoever, not even the occasional glimpse through the sides of the hood.
I'd find a lake or other dark area and do the maneuvers in VMC. It'll be just like IMC because your student won't have any visual reference whatsoever, not even the occasional glimpse through the sides of the hood.
sixpack
New Member
Just to clarify...
I'm not trying to find IMC to do maneuvers in. Hoods work just fine for the ATP, CFII, and Instrument students.
In the winter, we have a lot of overcast days, so it's IMC or nothing.
Your suggestions have been great. I'd also be interested in hearing about what controllers like and dislike, and how well they work with you in these situations (even though I'm sure it varies by region).
I'm not trying to find IMC to do maneuvers in. Hoods work just fine for the ATP, CFII, and Instrument students.
In the winter, we have a lot of overcast days, so it's IMC or nothing.
Your suggestions have been great. I'd also be interested in hearing about what controllers like and dislike, and how well they work with you in these situations (even though I'm sure it varies by region).
pscraig
Well-Known Member
I've done it a few times, and it's something I consider carefully. The only maneuvers I will not do IMC are the Vmc demo and engine shutdown/airstart. While I do not enjoy IMC maneuvers, as long as the student is able to handle the plane I will consider it, especially for a short program like a 2-day ATP.
Since I am filed IFR already, we usually get a block of airspace around a fix and get to work. I maintain my instrument scan throughout all maneuvers, and ensure things happen slowly and deliberately.
CFI ability might be a factor, but I found myself doing IMC stalls in my first 10 hours of dual given. You have to really know the plane, and be able to handle the high workload.
Since I am filed IFR already, we usually get a block of airspace around a fix and get to work. I maintain my instrument scan throughout all maneuvers, and ensure things happen slowly and deliberately.
CFI ability might be a factor, but I found myself doing IMC stalls in my first 10 hours of dual given. You have to really know the plane, and be able to handle the high workload.
ERAU_Intern
New Member
Absolutely. And it's the job of a CFII to be constantly looking for traffic. I don't care if you are in an ATC environment. They have no way of knowing what manuvers you are going to perform, so this kind of thing is just asking for trouble. Plus, the purpose of instrument manuvers is really just to demonstrate that you have a solid scan and instrument interpretation skills good enough act quickly and effectively during abrupt manuvers. This can be accomplished PERFECTLY well under the hood. Just my 2 cents.
Ralgha
Well-Known Member
Looking for traffic while IMC doesn't do any good, you'll just be looking at the inside of a cloud. If you do happen to see traffic, you're dead anyway.
While it's true that ATC doesn't know what maneuvers you'll be doing, they do give you a specific block of airspace, with both lateral and vertical limits, within which you can do whatever you please. They will keep other IFR traffic outside your block. Now if you're VMC, then there may well be VFR traffic in your block, but so what? You're VMC.
The maneuvers can be accomplished perfectly well under the hood, but here in Oregon, we don't have the luxury of VFR weather all the time. If you want to make any progress in the winter, you're going to have to suck it up and *gasp* go IMC sometimes. I won't do stalls or unusual attitudes IMC, or even steep turns, but other manuevers I will. Part of the CFII's job is to be proficient enough to recognize a dangerous situation developing and stop it before it does develop. When IMC, you can devote nearly all your attention to what the student is doing since looking for traffic is futile (though you probably need to watch for ice in this area).
You all would probably really flip out if we did this at night huh?
While it's true that ATC doesn't know what maneuvers you'll be doing, they do give you a specific block of airspace, with both lateral and vertical limits, within which you can do whatever you please. They will keep other IFR traffic outside your block. Now if you're VMC, then there may well be VFR traffic in your block, but so what? You're VMC.
The maneuvers can be accomplished perfectly well under the hood, but here in Oregon, we don't have the luxury of VFR weather all the time. If you want to make any progress in the winter, you're going to have to suck it up and *gasp* go IMC sometimes. I won't do stalls or unusual attitudes IMC, or even steep turns, but other manuevers I will. Part of the CFII's job is to be proficient enough to recognize a dangerous situation developing and stop it before it does develop. When IMC, you can devote nearly all your attention to what the student is doing since looking for traffic is futile (though you probably need to watch for ice in this area).
You all would probably really flip out if we did this at night huh?
This is a good thread....I've been thinking about this lately.
My question is....how do you go about this when filing? Do you go ahead and file IFR requesting a certain block of airspace before you're in the air? If someone could give me a detailed explanation I'd be very thankful.
My question is....how do you go about this when filing? Do you go ahead and file IFR requesting a certain block of airspace before you're in the air? If someone could give me a detailed explanation I'd be very thankful.
Flying_Corporal
New Member
Except 4 fundamentals (climb, desc, turns and S&L), I don't do any other maneuvers in IMC with my students. Too dangerous. Besides, what's the purpose of practicing stalls, steep turns, etc in IMC? An IP should always stick to std rate turns anyway.
Around NYC area you never get a block altitude, but a little upstate controlers are generally ok if you tell them that you'll do airwork around a VOR.
As far as filing, you file to a VOR (fix) and then let the controller know what you want to do.
Around NYC area you never get a block altitude, but a little upstate controlers are generally ok if you tell them that you'll do airwork around a VOR.
As far as filing, you file to a VOR (fix) and then let the controller know what you want to do.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
As far as filing, you file to a VOR (fix) and then let the controller know what you want to do.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just to add to that, make sure you get an EFC back to the airport!!! That could really put you in a bad spot without one!!
As far as filing, you file to a VOR (fix) and then let the controller know what you want to do.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just to add to that, make sure you get an EFC back to the airport!!! That could really put you in a bad spot without one!!
pscraig
Well-Known Member
I just file IFR with the same origin and destination, with comments such as "hold at EPICS, ifr maneuvers". The controllers here pretty much know my routine and will sometimes even ask if I need an airspace block whether it's IMC or VMC. WIthout a helpful TRACON it would be more difficult.
As far as maneuvers, I usually only do these in IMC with a 2-day ATP applicant. The stalls are only an approach to a stall with the other emphasis on steep turns and approaches.
As far as maneuvers, I usually only do these in IMC with a 2-day ATP applicant. The stalls are only an approach to a stall with the other emphasis on steep turns and approaches.
flyguy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Holds in IMC can be interesting. I was practicing holds with my instructor one day, and ATC told me to climb from 3000 to 4000. So here I was in IMC, in a climbing right turn. What's my instructor do? Throws a pencil at me, which then lands in the floor between my feet. Then he tells me to pick it up. Talk about spatial disorientation! My brain was telling me I was upside down. Really made me focus on the instruments and not my equilibrium.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've been told that if an examiner does this to you in a checkride, the correct response is "I need to concentrate on flying the airplane right now, would you like to borrow my pencil." Always carry extra pencils by the way.
My instructor likes to turn the cabin air on full blast, point the vent at my kneeboard so that the paper from my pad blows around and then have me copy the ATIS while circling.
Holds in IMC can be interesting. I was practicing holds with my instructor one day, and ATC told me to climb from 3000 to 4000. So here I was in IMC, in a climbing right turn. What's my instructor do? Throws a pencil at me, which then lands in the floor between my feet. Then he tells me to pick it up. Talk about spatial disorientation! My brain was telling me I was upside down. Really made me focus on the instruments and not my equilibrium.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've been told that if an examiner does this to you in a checkride, the correct response is "I need to concentrate on flying the airplane right now, would you like to borrow my pencil." Always carry extra pencils by the way.
My instructor likes to turn the cabin air on full blast, point the vent at my kneeboard so that the paper from my pad blows around and then have me copy the ATIS while circling.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
[quoteMy instructor likes to turn the cabin air on full blast, point the vent at my kneeboard so that the paper from my pad blows around and then have me copy the ATIS while circling.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to keep the air blowing in the airplane....because I get airsick in the bumps
....
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to keep the air blowing in the airplane....because I get airsick in the bumps