Malaysian 777 Plane Crashes in Ukraine

texas_pilot said:
I haven't read all 31 pages, but has it been discussed that between the explosion and high altitude that everyone would have already been dead or unconcious?
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I have deep concerns about the end of life for these unfortunate people, I think most likely the effect of military munitions on a civilian aircraft would indicate immediate death.
 
texas_pilot said:
I have deep concerns about the end of life for these unfortunate people, I think most likely the effect of military munitions on a civilian aircraft would indicate immediate death.
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I would hope, but the condition of the bodies, not so sure they didn't have a realization that they were in a "supremely abnormal" situation for a period of time and were about to die.

I tease the Dutch, but I wouldn't wish the realization that some FLIPPING BACKWOODS RETARDS were about to shoot you out of the sky on my worst enemies.

I don't mind dying, but spending an inordinate amount of time doing it isn't exactly my concept of "peaceful".

Screw those murderers.

And yes, I'm mad. And I won't do some "The View" you outta apolla-jize BS. Leave my site, I'm an •, but I'm not going to apologize.
 
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An old guy told me once, when I was a young sprite with a shiny A/P, that making a mistake wasn't acceptable but could be forgiven, but hiding or lying about a mistake is a sin that is not forgiven. A-holes over there don't seem very proud of their work. I wonder if they chopped up the cockpit and trucked it off looking for a cockpit voice recorder.
 
Derg said:
Umm, hmmm… Where to start here.

I've been routed over some very, shall we say, unsavory locales. They know we're coming, we've paid them a fair ransom for the right to do so, and largely we've got diversionary planning in order to help us either get to a more safe and/or politically safe airport if certain events transpire. Karachi does a fantastic job, for the most part, they do the best they can, but like hell I'm going to drop in there for a medical emergency.

A number of years ago, a large international carrier had an indication of a cargo fire over Iran in a DC-10. You really don't want to mess with cargo fires and the flight diverted into Tehran.

I wouldn't expect a maintenance crew to immediately fly into Iran because there are a whole number of technical and political dynamics which would be necessary. We have, well, shall we say appropriately-equipped extract options available to us worldwide, but that's intended Blackhawk Down type situations and a simple emergency diversion doesn't necessarily mean that the State Department wants to deal with the private appropriately-equipped extract option because it will be an international event which has ramifications well beyond the scope of what all of us sitting behind a computer full of vim and vigor can fathom.

I withhold judgement of Malaysian Airlines. They've got a whole lot more stuff going on than many of us, in front of our computers in the safety of the United States, possibly realize. It feels good to talk tough and talk about what someone else should do, just as long as we realize that it's just talk.

Malaysia, hell, not even you as an American, can go blazing into separatist-controlled anything. Where are you going to land? How are you going to get from where you landed to the location of the investigation without cooperation and coordination? Rambo's a movie.
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+1, great post. Alternates in that part of the world are often picked for political and security reasons, not just for weather. I've had an alternate a full 5 hours away (we actually landed at our destination with 60k lbs of gas) due to the political landscape associated with that trip, and who we had onboard. In some places, particularly during military charters, expect to be arrested following a diversion.

We've actually had to fly hundreds of miles out of our way to "launder" our route of flight before, particularly when dealing with Turkey and Greece (though those are both generally safe countries).
 
Time of useful consciousness at 33k is certainly long enough to realize that you're strapped in to a seat that's freefalling towards the ground, and there seem to have been large enough chunks hitting the ground that I don't think there was an "instantly fatal" degree of explosion/fire at alt. I'd give dollars to donuts that at least some of those people got the chance to realize that they were about to die.

And yeah, screw the checking-all-the-stereotype-boxes backwoods peasants who did it, with whatever is most unpleasant and close at hand. Revolting.
 
ryan1234 said:
My first time in Minsk, Belarus really opened my eyes to some craziness like you talk about. However, I believe that anyone, anywhere in the world is capable of that type of depravity and it truly is a sad thing.
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Oh yeah. I mean go to Walmart or Whole foods and see how people treat eachother. If that same dynamic was moved to a place and time where there weren't really consequences for your actions...that same stuff would happen here.
 
dasleben said:
+1, great post. Alternates in that part of the world are often picked for political and security reasons, not just for weather. I've had an alternate a full 5 hours away (we actually landed at our destination with 60k lbs of gas) due to the political landscape associated with that trip, and who we had onboard. In some places, particularly during military charters, expect to be arrested following a diversion.

We've actually had to fly hundreds of miles out of our way to "launder" our route of flight before, particularly when dealing with Turkey and Greece (though those are both generally safe countries).
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Thanks!

I don't think a lot of people realize that it's not delineated "good versus bad" out there and how we "surf" it constantly.

I work for an airline that was flying Berlin and Frankfurt to Moscow back during the cold war when you'd get trailed by MiG's and Su's enroute that were fully armed and luckily couldn't keep up with the raw prowess that was the unhush-kitted 727's in the early days.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Time of useful consciousness at 33k is certainly long enough to realize that you're strapped in to a seat that's freefalling towards the ground, and there seem to have been large enough chunks hitting the ground that I don't think there was an "instantly fatal" degree of explosion/fire at alt. I'd give dollars to donuts that at least some of those people got the chance to realize that they were about to die.

And yeah, screw the checking-all-the-stereotype-boxes backwoods peasants who did it, with whatever is most unpleasant and close at hand. Revolting.
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Oh they knew.

They felt the impact, tumbled for a period of time, were confused and knew fully well it wasn't normal.

The missileer was a straight-up murderer. And the people that dug through the deceased belongings were hideous.
 
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dasleben said:
+1, great post. Alternates in that part of the world are often picked for political and security reasons, not just for weather. I've had an alternate a full 5 hours away (we actually landed at our destination with 60k lbs of gas) due to the political landscape associated with that trip, and who we had onboard. In some places, particularly during military charters, expect to be arrested following a diversion.
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Don't miss the approach.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Don't miss the approach.
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Sounds dramatic, but we had a crew at Brand X who diverted to a -stan after a flap issue. As it was told to me, the crew was told to fix the problem and leave immediately. They weren't able to fix the issue, and so they were arrested and held as a security threat. In order to get out, they lied and said they'd figured out how to fix the problem. Naturally, upon returning to the jet, they simply fired up and flew it out. Illegal as far as the FAA is concerned, but really the only option.
 
knot4u said:
that making a mistake wasn't acceptable but could be forgiven, but hiding or lying about a mistake is a sin that is not forgiven.
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There is a certain difference between the western and former soviet/russian mentality. In western world people usually punished much less severely if they make an honest mistake and come clean. In Russia people are punished more by a result (to a certain extent of course).
Hence, assuming that the separatists in fact shot down MH17 and that happened by accident, they will feel motivated to conceal evidences.
 
dasleben said:
Sounds dramatic, but we had a crew at Brand X who diverted to a -stan after a flap issue. As it was told to me, the crew was told to fix the problem and leave immediately. They weren't able to fix the issue, and so they were arrested and held as a security threat. In order to get out, they lied and said they'd figured out how to fix the problem. Naturally, upon returning to the jet, they simply fired up and flew it out. Illegal as far as the FAA is concerned, but really the only option.
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*opens mouth, closes it, opens again, closes*

I think I'll take my chances with the Feds. :)
 
Yeah. "Gosh, it sure SEEMED broken...but it worked fine when we left. Damn, now it's broken again. Go figure!"

"Uh, so, let's just add, say, 20 to Vr and see how it feels? Everyone cool with that? Cause I don't think there's running water in the local klink and my complexion REQUIRES hydration..."
 
Reading the last few pages, I'm kind of shocked by some of the posts I read. This plane crashed where it was SHOT DOWN. A missle was fired, at an airliner full of people, from a rebel controlled part of a war torn country. And it crashed there. Does this crash site seem like a "We have an aircraft down, here's your itinerary get to the airport ASAP" kind of location? Nope.

To me, these comments sound the same as "Hey, in Black Hawk Down, why wasn't there a military crash investigation team combing the wreckage in war-torn Somalia within 24 hours?! They have responsibilities!!!!111". Yeah, no.
 
ChasenSFO said:
Reading the last few pages, I'm kind of shocked by some of the posts I read. This plane crashed where it was SHOT DOWN. A missle was fired, at an airliner full of people, from a rebel controlled part of a war torn country. And it crashed there. Does this crash site seem like a "We have an aircraft down, here's your itinerary get to the airport ASAP" kind of location? Nope.

To me, these comments sound the same as "Hey, in Black Hawk Down, why wasn't there a military crash investigation team combing the wreckage in war-torn Somalia within 24 hours?! They have responsibilities!!!!111". Yeah, no.
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Even if this happened here in the USA, it's not a standard NTSB-style accident investigation. Depending on how one looks at it, it's either an act or war/combat, or a crime, or both. It's something law enforcement or military would be investigating depending on jurisdiction, with any of the major aviation accident investigating bodies serving in a supporting technical role only.

We could probably airlift an investigating team into there without diplomatic clearance of any kind via military means, but that would be an essential invasion, and securing the ground there to allow the investigation to proceed would be tough. Very tough. We'd just become the third player in the war there.
 
Ask yourself. If Texas were in a war with Mexico, and some dumbass, scumbag rednecks shot down an airliner going from, say, Malaysia to, I dunno, Amsterdam, regardless of how obviously the Texas Militia was at fault, how would everyone feel about Russian troops "securing the crash site"?

I guess everyone is Tough on the Internet. Big part of the problem.
 
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