Maintaining professionalism at 11 pm...

[Gonzo]

Because the FOM is always right.

In the 121 world my FM-1 and AOM 1/2 are always right

It becomes my business when the way you fly your plane interferes with the way i fly mine.

To bad.

If you really wanna wait until you get to the gate to cancel, ok. I dont agree with it, and i dont think its necessary, but the least you could do is come up with a legitimate reason. I'm guessing its really just because thats how you were told to do it.

Here is my reason. Now kind in mind like I said on the ATR some days we would cancel IFR over 100 miles out and just fly VFR it was just part of flying in the islands.

Now in the ORD system there is maybe 2-3 scheduled flights to an airport after the tower is closed. More then likely if I am flying in to an airport with a closed tower we are running late. Being a RSV guy I more then likely am 10+ hours in to my day. I look at keeping the IFR plan out as one more safety net because the way I understand it with an open IFR plan someone is watching me but if I cancel the controller might stop watching me.

 

[ppragman]

In the 121 world my FM-1 and AOM 1/2 are always right



To bad.



Here is my reason. Now kind in mind like I said on the ATR some days we would cancel IFR over 100 miles out and just fly VFR it was just part of flying in the islands.

Now in the ORD system there is maybe 2-3 scheduled flights to an airport after the tower is closed. More then likely if I am flying in to an airport with a closed tower we are running late. Being a RSV guy I more then likely am 10+ hours in to my day. I look at keeping the IFR plan out as one more safety net because the way I understand it with an open IFR plan someone is watching me but if I cancel the controller might stop watching me.

Under 135 at least (not too sure about 121) you must always have a way of being located with at least as much information as a VFR flight plan (135.79). Now if you look at your FOM/GOM/WhatEverOM you'll notice that it probably says something like, "if an aircraft is more than 30 min. overdue then so and so will be notified." You're being watched at basically the same level of scrutiny by your own dispatchers (or at least you should be).

 

[derg]

Don't you guys hate aviation though? (j/k!) We're all right, and we're all wrong, depending on perspective.

Ehh, besides, we've got a real big fish to fry this week. :/

 

[Bumblebee]

I hate everything...people, life, dogs and especially kitties!:laff:


I'm sorry, but I really can't buy the part where you keep on an IFR flight plan to the gate.

If one person could quote their FOM that states that in severe inclement wx you are to maintain your IFR clearance until you are securely in the blocks I might be able to understand why this has been stated. I am quite sure, however, that there is nowhere where this is the case. The FAA must approve the flight manual and it becomes a Federal Regulation. The FAA is not going to be very happy that someone kept the approach structures closed once clear of the active runway. A taxiway is not included in an IFR clearance.

As I recall, and maybe one of the other SkW folks can chime in here, at OO we were instructed n the FOM/SOP to be sure to cancel the IFR clearance once clear of the runway. ( I would look it up, but I don't have an FOM and longer)

 

[pullup]

Don't you guys hate aviation though? (j/k!) We're all right, and we're all wrong, depending on perspective.

Ehh, besides, we've got a real big fish to fry this week. :/

What is this fish you keep talking about?

 

[Screaming_Emu]

The FAA must approve the flight manual and it becomes a Federal Regulation. The FAA is not going to be very happy that someone kept the approach structures closed once clear of the active runway.

While I agree with you, you are implying that the FAA uses logic. Which is simply wrong

 

[dasleben]

I love 91 flying.

-Pick up the outbound IFR when you're 20 miles from the airport
-Shoot an approach to minimums
-Land and cancel IFR on the roll out.
-Set takeoff flaps instead of flaps up on the taxi in so you save a little wear and tear on the flap motor
-Three minute quick turn; go inside, grab the passenger, throw the person and bags in the airplane
-Call for release while you're running the checklist on the taxi out
-Airborne again 5 minutes after you landed.

All the while, the line guy is still standing on the ramp trying to figure out WTF is going on.

I wish you guys were all like that! Sadly, I've sat there with my engines running at the runway waiting for release while the Citation who just picked up his clearance is shut down on the ramp still loading passengers.

FSS: "Well, we can't get ATC to release you until they know where Citation XXXXX is."
Me: "I'm looking at him right now...he's completely shut down with his door open!"

I ended up having to wait until the Citation's void time before I could get released.

I've also seen the guys who can't seem to find the appropriate frequency in that stack of Jepps they have, and tell you over the radio "We'll just have to cancel when we get to a phone, sorry."

Unfortunately, courtesy is hard to find sometimes. :banghead:

 

[Bumblebee]

While I agree with you, you are implying that the FAA uses logic. Which is simply wrong

I was trying to incorporate the lack of logic in large organizations into that post, but though it muddied the water, besides I knew you would do it for me:beer:

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I was trying to incorporate the lack of logic in large organizations into that post, but though it muddied the water, besides I knew you would do it for me:beer:

I gotcho back like a sweater, ya herd? :beer:

 

[FL900]

Don't you 121 guys get it?

Don't follow your OM/FOM or any other directed publication from your company.

Standard means little to some of our professional peers, same goes with flying on profile...make up your own rules, come on...don't be a wimp.

OK, I'm guessing that was a sarcastic way of making the point that you can't fault a pilot for following his company policy. Right?

I think this discussion would benefit from a distinction between company policy and an individual pilot's choice. Honestly I think most people understand that other pilots have to follow their companies' policies, even if they are stupid, and would not advocate that other pilots just "make up your own rules". The gripe is with the guys who do it by choice.

 

[surreal1221]

Right.

If I don't fly standard, or if I fail to follow my OM/FOM to the L-E-T-T-E-R, and something happens...and I can't explain or point directly to the text telling me how to operate the company's asset, my union will have very little ability to protect me so that I keep my job.

For most of us, this isn't a hobby. This is a profession, trying to stay in this profession is a success every minute the clock ticks on by. We can't see what type of mess we may end up in 1, 5, 10, 30 minutes or an hour in advance. Only thing we can do is operate by the rules set forth to us by our company.

We start making up our own rules and it'll do nothing but compromise the security and safety of flight or worse, with one of us losing our jobs because we thought we'd do things differently.

It's all about standards.

Find me a FOM or whatever that requires an airplane to maintain IFR services while taxiing to the gate and I'll eat everything I've said, humbly too. Until then Cancel IFR asap after turning off the runway, and I'll even monitor CTAF incase you get hopelessly lost and wander onto a runway.

I can't do that for you. But that's not the point.

My company may operate differently than any other 121 certificate holder, operating how their CMO and POI allow them to operate.

How we cancel our IFR in an uncontrolled environment can certainly be different than how another 121 certificate holder operates their assets.

 

[Stone Cold]

...

So, is it specifically written in your FOM that when flying into an uncontrolled field, you will not cancel IFR until at the gate?

If not, is it in your profiles to not cancel IFR until at the gate?

If not, then what are you talking about? Just arguing to argue? I believe there have been a few major airline pilots say it is not any safer to do. I would think they probably have more restrictive and encompassing OM/FOM/profiles...but I could be wrong...

 

[OldTownPilot]

Right.

If I don't fly standard, or if I fail to follow my OM/FOM to the L-E-T-T-E-R, and something happens...and I can't explain or point directly to the text telling me how to operate the company's asset, my union will have very little ability to protect me so that I keep my job.

For most of us, this isn't a hobby. This is a profession, trying to stay in this profession is a success every minute the clock ticks on by. We can't see what type of mess we may end up in 1, 5, 10, 30 minutes or an hour in advance. Only thing we can do is operate by the rules set forth to us by our company.

We start making up our own rules and it'll do nothing but compromise the security and safety of flight or worse, with one of us losing our jobs because we thought we'd do things differently.

It's all about standards.


I can't do that for you. But that's not the point.

My company may operate differently than any other 121 certificate holder, operating how their CMO and POI allow them to operate.

How we cancel our IFR in an uncontrolled environment can certainly be different than how another 121 certificate holder operates their assets.

You still didn't point to anything that even hints at a FOM saying that its a good idea to keep IFR to the gate. I know rules are rules, but if that's your only defense to this, then you don't have a defense, until you find where that's a rule.

 

[dasleben]

Right.

If I don't fly standard, or if I fail to follow my OM/FOM to the L-E-T-T-E-R, and something happens...and I can't explain or point directly to the text telling me how to operate the company's asset, my union will have very little ability to protect me so that I keep my job.

For most of us, this isn't a hobby. This is a profession, trying to stay in this profession is a success every minute the clock ticks on by. We can't see what type of mess we may end up in 1, 5, 10, 30 minutes or an hour in advance. Only thing we can do is operate by the rules set forth to us by our company.

We start making up our own rules and it'll do nothing but compromise the security and safety of flight or worse, with one of us losing our jobs because we thought we'd do things differently.

It's all about standards. The end.

I agree with you 100%.

However, does your FOM/GOM state that you must wait until the gate to cancel IFR? If it does, great. If it doesn't, well, there'd better be a very good reason a crew is tying up resources by taxiing to the gate under IFR.

And yes, I have plenty of RJ time to back up that statement. Any FO worth his/her salt should have no problem canceling IFR while watching the CA drive the boat. Hell, I managed to keep my aircraft (not equipped with anti-skid) "in play" all last winter on ice/snow covered taxiways while making radio calls myself (oogity boogity!). You just have to not be a weak-stick who can't do two things at once.

 

[surreal1221]

Because the FOM is always right. Your FOM is meant to create as little liability for your airline as possible, even if it means creating a hazardous situation for someone else.

While we're taking pot shots, you know the only reason they have the FOM is because they really dont trust you to do things the right way, huh? I mean 121 guys are so professional that they'll err on the side of caution by keeping a flight plan open, but apparently cant recover from a stall, or will run through an entire checklist while the plane is burning.

Id prolly lose all my common sense too, if i was given a procedure on how to take a piss. Some of us arent spoon fed everything, and we have to make the best out of what we have.

The FOM is right. Even if we as individual pilots disagree with it. There are ways to have things changed within the source document.

Part 91 guys are afforded a much greater operating authority than Part 121 - for a number of reasons.

Yeah, some of these 121 guys shouldn't be up front since they can't recover from a stall - but guess what - that company HIRED and RETRAINED, and RETRAINED again, that same pilot even after finding out his training failures in the past. Who are we to blame? He's the exception, and that exception got some people killed.

Believe it or not - there are 121 pilots who have not failed any checkrides and know how to recover from a stall - low and high altitude, and who will evacuate an aircraft from memory without having to pull out the checklist while the plane is burning.

No potting shots my friend, but you operate in a significantly different realm and have greater operational authority for specific reasons. We, 121 pilots, do not in that regard - we have to operate the aircraft the way the company trained us and that's that. That means following guidelines of IFR Communications with ATC into an uncontrolled environment.

While I agree it's ridiculous to not cancel when in the air, or at least once off the runway, if a company tells their crews to maintain the clearance until at the gate - then they are obligated to do just that. Just seems like you're getting angry at the wrong people, get pissed at the training and standards departments at those companies - not the front line crews who have no choice but to follow their company's / FAA regulations.

As I stated in a previous post, if we operate outside of those guidelines and regulations we have ZERO defense should something happen. But hey - I'm glad you know what my FOM was meant to do, which operator are you working for?

 

[surreal1221]

All right guys above...read the bold below...I'm not SPEAKING OF MY FOM specifically...just the general operating limitations of being confined to operating strictly by our FOM, at our respective companies. All companies are different, I can't defend canceling at the gate since I don't personally do that - I cancel in the air, but if another company directs their crews to cancel at the gate - then that's where they cancel.

So, is it specifically written in your FOM that when flying into an uncontrolled field, you will not cancel IFR until at the gate?

If not, is it in your profiles to not cancel IFR until at the gate?

If not, then what are you talking about? Just arguing to argue? I believe there have been a few major airline pilots say it is not any safer to do. I would think they probably have more restrictive and encompassing OM/FOM/profiles...but I could be wrong...

I'm speaking in generalities for a reason.

All 121 certificate holders are free to operate their assets as approved by their POI/CMO.

My company allows us to cancel in the air and most of us do just that. But I can't speak for Eagle, XJT, Air Tran, Jet Blue, Delta, United...etc...

Get what I'm saying? My point is largely trying to indicate that we have very little room to do things our own way, for very good reason.

 

[Stone Cold]

All right guys above...read the bold below...I'm not SPEAKING OF MY FOM specifically...just the general operating limitations of being confined to operating strictly by our FOM, at our respective companies. All companies are different, I can't defend canceling at the gate since I don't personally do that - I cancel in the air, but if another company directs their crews to cancel at the gate - then that's where they cancel.



I'm speaking in generalities for a reason.

All 121 certificate holders are free to operate their assets as approved by their POI/CMO.

My company allows us to cancel in the air and most of us do just that. But I can't speak for Eagle, XJT, Air Tran, Jet Blue, Delta, United...etc...
Get what I'm saying? My point is largely trying to indicate that we have very little room to do things our own way, for very good reason.

If not, then what are you talking about? Just arguing to argue?

So, yes, you are saying you are arguing for the sake of it. I understand how FOM/POI/profiles fit in. What I think people are asking is does anybody out there actually have a limitation in their FOM or profile, or from their training department to specifically do what the OP stated...i.e. not cancelling until getting to the gate?

Also, I am pretty sure that most, if not all 121 ops would have standard radio calls at uncontrolled fields, so this crew, according to the story the OP stated, was a rogue crew not following profile/procedures and tying up the IFR system for no real reason other than to...you fill in the blanks there.

**this is all dependent on the original story being true as stated, and yes I did de-bold some of your quote for illustrative purposes.

 

[surreal1221]

What I saw was a couple Part 91/135 pilots jumping down the throat of a 121 pilot for operating by his company's OM, by canceling at the gate.

Not arguing, just stating that perhaps that pilot and crew have to actually follow the rules instead of making their own.

Sure, I wouldn't do it that way, but then again - if my company told me that how I am suppose to operate - then I would, but since they tell me it's okay to cancel in the air or on the ground ASAP - that's what I do.

 

[derg]

What is this fish you keep talking about?

Something that'll make you say, "Whaaaa? You mean... and.... and then.... whaaaaaaa? Over... whaaaaaaa?" Trust me.

 

[Stone Cold]

What I saw was a couple Part 91/135 pilots jumping down the throat of a 121 pilot for operating by his company's OM, by canceling at the gate.

Not arguing, just stating that perhaps that pilot and crew have to actually follow the rules instead of making their own.

Sure, I wouldn't do it that way, but then again - if my company told me that how I am suppose to operate - then I would, but since they tell me it's okay to cancel in the air or on the ground ASAP - that's what I do.

Where's our Airtran pilots? Is it in their FOM/profiles??? Is it in their profiles/procedures to make radio calls at an uncontrolled field? I'm ASSuming the original story was about Airtran, but could be wrong.

I absolutely agree if, and that is a BIG if, their guidance from the company is to wait until the gate, then yes, that is what you do.

However, if the pilots did what is actually told in the original story, and were not following company guidance on radio procedures and decided to wait to cancel at the gate on their own, then I agree with everybody else in asking this crew not to be a prick just because you are in a jet, be it 121, 135, 91 or any other regs you may operate under.

And with that, have fun with this thread...I'm done with the disagreeing and being ambiguous just to keep rehashing a point where we do not have the full story, and you admittedly do not know their procedures or FOM guidance. Neither do I, so enjoy.:beer: